Alternative writings

*hugs*

By the way, is it passed all over, or just in some states? I always get confused with where things are being passed...

The most coherent argument I've ever heard against gay marriage is that it could cause economic problems--like with social security or whatever benefits married people get, because the number of marriages will increase. But the way I see, that problem ALREADY exists with straight marriages. All of the problems I've ever been told about that gay marriage could have are things that straight marriages already have. So basically, I don't see what the big deal is. Just use the same laws we already have for marriage, and apply them to these new marriages. Maybe I'm just not politically savvy enough, but I don't understand what the big deal is. *shrugs*

Well, I'm glad it's passed. ^__^

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Passed in California.

Maybe I'm just not politically savvy enough, but I don't understand what the big deal is. *shrugs*

Gahy marriage is teh evalh cause then gays will get married and spread their gay cooties on everyone and make them all gay and then God will hate us and smite us down because we're all busy being gahy and not fearing God and having good proper marriages where the husband is in charge and the woman stays home all day to cook and clean and raise the kids who must be white and Christian.

The most coherent argument I've ever heard against gay marriage is that it could cause economic problems--like with social security or whatever benefits married people get, because the number of marriages will increase.

They should just ban marriage then.

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christinaathena.livejournal.com

They should just ban marriage then.

Or just have the government get the hell out of marriage.

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That works too, depending on what you mean by that.

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Weeeell, actually it doesn't work so much, because even if the government stops legislating who can marry whom... marriage is a religious thing. And as far as I know, religions on the whole generally frown on that kinda thang.

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That's what my dad says--that the government should get out of the marriage business.

There'll still be all the religious and social conflicts between people about marriage and all, but still.

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Well, yes, that's just the problem. My dad's view is that they should just eliminate the tax benefits and all that stuff of marriage. Because it's a big mess, or something.

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Government in general is a big mess. Though the states are better than most.

In somethings.

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guardians-song.livejournal.com

"Maybe I'm just not politically savvy enough, but I don't understand what the big deal is. *shrugs*"
Because liek Oh My G-D marriage is a SPESHUL thing which is sacrosanct and beautiful and sparkly and MUST BE KEPT TO HET BECAUSE GAYNESS IS UNNATURAL AND DOESN'T PRODUCE BABIES.

...I admit, in THEORY I think marriage is speshul and sparkly, but in practice, hell naw. And some heterosexual marriages are so f'ed up anyway that there's nothing sparkly to preserve overall. And that has nothing to do with gayness or straightness anyways.

The entire thing with sexuality being a choice is kind of silly when analyzed. So, is the gay sex REALLY so amazing that people would WANT to risk prejudice and social shunning to engage in it? O_o Sounds more like the people writing those litanies are yaoi fanbrats, to be honest. XD "GASP! The gaysex is SO AMAZING that if we didn't forbid it, EVERY MAN would flock to gayness! 8O OMG-d WE MUST STOP IT AT ONCE!"

...Yeah. -_-;; Frankly, I have the somewhat crackish theory that homophobia sort of leads to doubting your sexuality, because you'll seize upon any vague enjoyment of looking at the same sex and start worrying "OMG! Am I gay?! Must look away! Must not think about it!" ...And as in the old joke about "Now, try your hardest not to think about elephants", it just makes you think MORE about it. -_-;; Yeeeeeeeeeeeah. Reverse psychology can be screwy sometimes. XD

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Marriage is sacrosanct? I have four words for that:

Britney Spears' first marriage.

I wouldn't call myself homophobic as such, but I do have to admit to the self-doubt and 'must not think' thing. The problem with more information is re-evaluation of what you know, or think you know.

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Marriage is sacrosanct? I have four words for that:

Britney Spears' first marriage.

*adds three more words.*

Any celebrity marriage.

It's a reevaluation of things you thought were true, but now aren't. Doubt is natural.

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Hmmm, true, mostly...

And yeah, it is... I just figure that some people are very charismatic and appealing in some way, no matter what gender or sexuality you are.

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Yes, yes, I realize that that's the typical argument against it, but I mean somewhat more rational arguments that have to do with legal and economic issues. Although I still think it seems like it'll be fine. My dad says he thinks that it'll be more complicated (to institute gay marriage, that is) than people realize, though, and might require some reform of current laws or something. I dunno, I don't know enough about the marriage laws. But I say, we've already GOT laws pertaining to marriage, so why not just use them? *shrugs*

Well, as a Catholic, naturally I believe marriage is a sacrament, or it's meant to be one. Doesn't mean everyone treats it that way. But I say, if it's a sacrament between a man and a woman, then it's a sacrament between men and between women.

And yeah, I think sexuality is clearly not a choice, just based on increasing scientific evidence. there was a great article in a recent Scientific American...okay, I'll stop before I babble on for hours. I LOVE that magazine. XD But yeah, no one would choose to be something that causes extreme societal prejudice and that people may even kill you for, would they? You just...are what you are.

And yes, of course--if you're terrified of TEH GAY, then naturally you're terrified that YOU might be gay, and overanalyze everything. As opposed to being more rational, and just taking it all in stride. That's my life strategy. XD

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I believe marriage is a sacrament,

Sacrament is sacrament.

As opposed to being more rational, and just taking it all in stride.

Most people are afraid of rationality.

But yeah, no one would choose to be something that causes extreme societal prejudice and that people may even kill you for, would they?

Doesn't explain us Jews though. XD

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What's to explain? You were born a Jew.

Which is easier to prove than 'born gay', so far...

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What's to explain? You were born a Jew.

True, but technically speaking, Religion is a choice. You're taught it from when you're little. You can leave it, convert, stop doing certain things, all sorts of stuff like that. As opposed to something where its...well born with.

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But yeah, no one would choose to be something that causes extreme societal prejudice and that people may even kill you for, would they? You just...are what you are.

Ever watch Little Britain? There's a fantastic series of skits about a guy called Daffyd, who insists that he is the only gay in the village... despite increasing evidence to the contrary. In fact, he seems to really get off on trying to get attention for his tragic affliction of being the only gay in the village... only to get upset when people are understanding and tolerant, and outright homophobic if he actually meets a gay man.

I'm not saying that all gays are attention seekers... but there are people, I believe, who will choose a role BECAUSE of how people will react...

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Hmmm...well, that's true, there are people who just want attention. But still--most people don't purposely choose things that cause them problems without much obvious benefit. I mean it just seems ridiculous when people suggest that it's all a choice and you can retrain people's sexualities or something. I mean...I dunno, it just seems like a weird idea.

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California only - it's the second state in the US to legalize gay marriage.

The biggest objectors are the conservative Christians, who say that marriage is a Christian sacrament, and that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, gay marriage is a perversion of a sacred ritual, and condones a relationship that is "an abomination in the eyes of the Lord" (and yes, I have seen that exact phrase used to describe homosexuality.)

Unfortunately for them, the United States is not, nor was it originally, a Christian nation, no matter what garbage they feed them in church about the Founding Fathers.

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The biggest objectors are the conservative Christians, who say that marriage is a Christian sacrament, and that homosexuality is a sin. Therefore, gay marriage is a perversion of a sacred ritual, and condones a relationship that is "an abomination in the eyes of the Lord" (and yes, I have seen that exact phrase used to describe homosexuality.)

Christian sacrament? Does that mean they're against Jews getting married too? =D

The abomination bit is from Leviticus. Which I find dumb because they don't follow the other stuff in there.

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Christian sacrament? Does that mean they're against Jews getting married too? =D
LOL Actually, they think it would be a much better world if the Jews would just quit being stubborn and admit that Jesus really is the Saaavior, but they don't have any problems with Jews getting married, and they're at least close enough to reality to realize that pretty much all the religions have some form of marriage rite... but that's so long as it's all one man / one woman. Start talking about alternative arrangements (other than, y'know, some guy having a female harem, which the Bible doesn't object to) and they break out the pitchforks and torches.

Conservative Christians have a bad habit of picking and choosing which parts of the Bible they listen to. And it seems like it's mostly the fire & brimstone parts that they like.

*Not-so-random bit o' trivia: The term "faggot" to refer to gays is generally supposed to be attributable to a medieval practice of lighting one on fire (a "faggot" in medieval times was a bundle of sticks tied together) and using the unfortunate person to ignite the pyre to burn witches at the stake. In actuality, the term has only been used to refer to homosexuals since the 20th Century, and no one knows the exact etymology.*

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yetanotherbob.livejournal.com

In actuality, the term has only been used to refer to homosexuals since the 20th Century, and no one knows the exact etymology

In the US, at least. In Britain, "Fag" still refers to a cigarette.

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But "faggot" does not, and in the US "fag" is simply a shortened version of "faggot". :)

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papier.livejournal.com

Random trivia: A faggot is a type of food. I doubt they sell them in the US though.

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Certainly not by that name! LOL So what is it?

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papier.livejournal.com

They're meatballs made of the off-cuts, stuff like offal and occasionally animal hearts. I've never tried any as they sound so disgusting. Almost like haggis in a meatball, lol.

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Yeah, sounds like one of those things that could be really gross. :P

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I think they like the fire and brimstone bits because those bits justify their own irrational hatred or dislike of anything that doesn't fit their tiny world view.

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That's my theory. It makes them feel better or safer or something to be able to point at someone else and say, "Those are the bad people, God! Smite them, not me!" Or maybe they're just the kind of people who can't feel good unless they're making someone else feel bad.

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I don't know...I think it's more that they picture God as very, very authoritarian and strict. Some people have trouble with the idea of a loving, forgiving God, because it can seem so contrary to what humans think is right.

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In a lot of cases, it seems the reason that they're having so much trouble comprehending that loving and forgiving God is because they themselves are so unsettled at the idea that the world is not black and white - good and evil aren't always so easy to distinguish as they'd like. They want God to be the Ultimate Enforcer, to smite anyone who breaks The Rules - because if they know what The Rules are, then they can just obey those and they're safe. The concept of a universe which isn't able to be locked into those little mental categories terrifies them. I know that my mom's idea of the ultimate argument against my not choosing to be Christian is, "What if you're wrong?"

(And then there's the ones who give Christianity a bad name because they're hatemongers hiding behind a Bible. Those guys make me want to lock 'em in a room with a Islamic terrorist and let 'em duke it out. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference between that sort is which god's name they're disgracing.)

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Yes, I think you're right. For a lot of people, I think it can be frightening to see things that aren't simple, and situations where maybe there IS no right answer, or to think 'what if I'm wrong?' It's easier to live in a simplified, black-and-white world, so I think that people sometimes attack anything that might push them out of that world because of fear.

And yeah, every religion has people who may claim to practice it, but I only see someone twisting the religion to their own ends. That just makes me angry, no matter what religion they claim to follow.

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Personally, my theory is that if there is a Satan, he's behind the folks like Pat Robertson and the Westboro fanatics, and it's his way of discrediting Jesus' teachings. Because if people actually treated each other the way that Jesus treated people, there'd be a hell of a lot less pain, hate and misery than there is now.

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emily-goddess.livejournal.com

The abomination bit is from Leviticus. Which I find dumb because they don't follow the other stuff in there

Also, I think Christ said somewhere that he represented a new Covenant, and that the rules of the old Covenant were no longer important. So Christians who turn to the Old Testament to justify things are ignoring Christ's teachings, really.

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Well, that specific phrase--the abomination bit--comes from Leviticus, which is in the Old Testament (so it's also in the Torah). And the US was, in fact, founded on the assumption that you were supposed to be Protestant, but you could get away with being something else as long as you didn't draw attention to yourself. And even that was sometimes a no-no. Look at the fuss people made when Kennedy campaigned for President--it was all, 'ZOMG he's Catholic OH NOEZ!!11elevezorz!" So, the US actually WAS originally a very, very WASP-y nation--although that has changed a great deal.

As a side note, I'm a conservative Catholic myself, and I support gay marriage. Just so you know that not ALL conservative Christians believe the same thing. ^_^

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The population was (and still is) originally heavily tilted towards the Christian, but a lot of the people who came over were leaving Europe because they were looking for somewhere the religious leaders didn't have a stranglehold on. A good number of the Founding Fathers were actually Freethinkers, atheists or Deists, for example. In fact there was a lot of debate over whether to use a religious-specific phrase like God or Jesus in the Constitution, and it was deliberately not included. Thomas Jefferson lobbied to specifically put in a bit about Hindus, Musselmen (Muslims) etc being protected by the First Amendment, but got shot down.

No offense intended - I'm more familiar with the Southern Baptist / Protestant fundamentalist variety myself, so I tend to focus on those when I get grumpy about conservative Christians, and they tend to have the same sets of taboos to varying degrees.

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It's true that some people who came to the colonies were fleeing the Anglican Church--however, they then set up communities where THEY had the stranglehold. Many others came for purely economic reasons--Jamestown is notable.

A few places were particularly tolerant--for exmaple, Catholics were better off in Maryland. And Pennsylvania was created by Penn with the intent of making it awesome and equal and stuff.

So, it was a mixed bag. However, many of our laws and stuff do have Protestant origins--just look at the Blue Laws that are still around in some places. So, our country does have a bit of a Christian/Protestant flavor to it, although individuals of the colonies obviously had many different thoughts and stuff. Although that has changed a great deal over time, and continues to change.

Oh, I'm not offended--I hear about how EBUL Christians are so often that I've gotten used to it. Something as non-offensive as what you said could hardly bother me in comparison, you know? XD But, as a side note, I do know Southern Baptists who are liberals, so, again, they're not all alike. Not that there aren't plenty of verrrrrry fundamentalist, strict people out there as well. Just look at that one group, the West-something Baptists, which is composed of like only 100-200 people, and hates literally EVERYBODY. It's kind of insane. O_o

Sorry for the long post, I just find social history and stuff kind of fascinating. ^_^;;; I had never known that about Jeff and the First Amendment thing--cool. ^__^

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Sorry for the long post, I just find social history and stuff kind of fascinating. ^_^;;; I had never known that about Jeff and the First Amendment thing--cool. ^__^
Same here, actually. You might try seeing if you can borrow Franklin, Jefferson & Madison: On Religion and the State by Gregory Schaaf. That's where I found the information about Jefferson, among quite a bit of other stuff - the author has studied the original writings of all three Founders and quotes them extensively, and if you're interested in that period of history, it's fascinating reading.

I don't claim all Christians are evil - most of them, even most of the fundamentalists, are genuinely trying to do what they believe is right. Most of them are good people, trying to become better. Unfortunately, like the Moslims, the Christians have the misfortune of having a small but vocal and sometimes violent minority who claim to speak for all, but pervert the true teachings of their religions.

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sdkjskdjksjd that book has Madison!? *fangirl squee* ...yeah, I really like Madison. ^_^;;; My dad's a big Hamilton fan, though--pffft, Madison is obviously cooler! Obviously! ...okay, I'll stop now. XD But some other great books abou that time period, if you're interested in it, are Founding Brothers and His Excellency, at least I think that's the title--they're by the same guy, and he's got ones about Jeff and Adams, too, he's a brilliant writer.

It's true...we do have those minorities. I just wish that more people would realize that they ARE a minority. Sometimes people assume that, because I'm Catholic, clearly I must be psychotic and guilt-ridden. O_o I'm sure everyone in a religion with those small-but-vocal minorities has that problem, though. ^_^;;;

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It does indeed have Madison. I think I may have read Founding Brothers, I can't remember... I know I have read American Creation, which took a very good balanced look at the issues that started in the Revolutionary era and are still affecting us today.

I do indeed know that - if a person is honest about looking at the people around them, they'll be able to see that not everybody who believes in Christ is like the jerks who stand on street corners howling about damnation and waving their Bibles like they'd like to club you with it. Much less like the Westboro Baptist psychotics... oy. Those guys give fanatics a bad name.

Problem is, most of the people who aren't on that lunatic fringe either don't speak up or they aren't as interesting to the media as the crazies. After all, if you're a reporter looking for a story on witches for Halloween, who are you going to be interviewing - the Goth-wannabe who dresses all in black (including bad or no makeup) and talks about how her religion predates Christianity and was almost destroyed in the Burning Times, and would happily hold a ritual dancing around a bonfire with no clothes on if it wouldn't get her arrested, or the small-town librarian with a ranch-style house who will admit that it was cobbled up from bits and pieces by an English civil servant / nudist back in the 60s, and whose idea of a ritual involves sitting in front of a simple candle and meditating? Never mind the fact that the librarian's probably more representative of modern Pagans, the first one is who will sell papers and attract viewers.

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Westborough Baptists--that's who I was thinking of. They hate literally everyone except themselves. I mean seriously--they specifically hate Catholics, Jews, Muslims, people who aren't religious, gays, Americans, and, well, everyone isn't them, with a single exception--they're okay with Protestants as long as the Protestants hate gays. It's like...WOW that's a lotta hate. O_o

And yeah, that is half the problem--the news has become entertainment, and a person who says 'well, I believe X, Y, and Z, but I don't have a problem if you don't believe it' is not half as entertaining as someone who's foaming at the mouth with conviction. Alas!

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misscam.livejournal.com

I like to think in some ways, the world is moving forward a bit.

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Slowly. I know you folks are much more forward than us in this matter.

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'You folks' and 'us' being who? *curious* Are the Jews really that conservative?

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misscam.livejournal.com

I suspect it's referring to Norwegians versus Americans. Norway was second in the world to get gay marriage, and the sixth to pass a fully gender-neutral marriage law. A majority of the population is in favour of this.

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