Elves and Technology

[kippurbird]

Brain Chewage.

Not quite an essay rant thingy.

A friend of mine, obadiah gave me some critic on the three chapters of the novel that I'm going to send out to the Tor editor. One of the things that he mentioned in the critic was how the magic of the world felt "humdrum". It was an every day thing that everyone had and everyone used. He wanted to have the magic more magical and fantastic. For it to be more mysterious. He felt it would make it more exciting. For me though, I want the magic to be purely a "background" thing taken for granted. That way the threat of having the magic taken away and not being able to do things like turn on lights would be more acute. And besides the non-wizarding lands aren't so magic reliant.

But it got me thinking. If in a technology heavy world magic is seen as amazing, wouldn't it be the same the other way around? If magic were everyday then technology would be a novel thing. In my world technological growth has been seriously stunted by the fey. The fey fear that technology will lead to greater iron usage which would prevent them from manipulating and existing in the "human" world.

Which now that I think about it is rather opposite of what other fey and elves do where instead they generally allow themselves to fade away and be trapped in Fairie because of the iron that men make. My fey actively cause technology to not be worthwhile to keep their hold on the human realms. Basically if anyone starts making a big production with iron the fey send them a warning of stop. If that doesn't work BOOOOOOM. After all if the fey are so powerful, why would they just let themselves go and fade away? I mean humans wouldn't do it. It's rather suicidal of the fey/elves to do such things. (My elves are different?)

Anyway, I digress. So I think I will try and make technology the sort of magic that a magic user would find magical and novel. Alec's older brother, Greywolf, is already fascinated by technology and is a tinker. Which will likely lead into trouble. But he's one of those people who want to know how things work. So, I'm going to try and interject that sort of thing into the world as the writing progresses.

In the mean time, I got one of the new eggs!

Comments

[fritters.livejournal.com]

What you say makes perfect sense and I'd like to see where you go with this. It seems novel (no pun intended) and interesting.

[ravenswept.livejournal.com]

I'd read it. Switching the play between the two would be interesting, especially in how it seems you plan to take the elves into a rather dark space so they can keep their power.

The concept of everyday magic reminds me of a triolgy I read in highschool...I wanna say by Tracy Hickman, possibly called The Darksword Trilogy, where magic was used by everyone, and technology use was considered an act of terrorism. Even the simple use of using a stick to pry a rock from the ground, instead of using magic to lift it out, was seen as sin.

I get where obadiah is coming from, from an editors point of view, in that most want magic to be this bombastic thing in the story, like a special effect in a movie. A big visual for the reader, something that when used in the way they think it should be, will be what keeps them reading for the next part that has magic in it. That, and you know, story, characterization, plot, depth, setting, that stuff too.

...also, I think what you were looking for is "critique" not "critic".

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

The elves are already in a dark space. They're not nice creatures. They're partially based on Terry Pratchett's elves and the fey from Gargoyles.

I get where obadiah is coming from, from an editors point of view, in that most want magic to be this bombastic thing in the story, like a special effect in a movie. A big visual for the reader, something that when used in the way they think it should be, will be what keeps them reading for the next part that has magic in it. That, and you know, story, characterization, plot, depth, setting, that stuff too.

I like to think my writing is visual enough...


...also, I think what you were looking for is "critique" not "critic".

Likely.

[ravenswept.livejournal.com]

Sorry, didn't mean they'd start out "light", just that you'd go a different route then most do when dealing with elves. Like Paolini...

Haven't read any/enough Pratchett (I feel like I lost some geekcred saying that) so I can't identify the to the elves. Gargoyles I do know, so yeah, okay I definitely see where you're going/coming from with that. Three Sisters all the way!

Bomastic visual...*trying to think of better explanation* like the difference between Harry Potter putting on the Invisiblity Cloak, and Dumbledore and Voldemort's duel in the fifth movie.

I haven't read any of your work, so I can't judge on that. Your reviews are pretty spot on, so you're right that you have visual prowess. But as a fantasy buff, you and those like you (myself included) read enough of magic to wonder about turning the tables so technology is the fantasic. To the layman, why would they want to read about a world where something they already know about is what that world considers amazing, when the magic, something that isn't real so they want to be told about it, is what fascinates them?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Haven't read any/enough Pratchett (I feel like I lost some geekcred saying that) so I can't identify the to the elves.

They only show up in Lords and Ladies which is Midsummer Night Dream done Pratchett style.

But as a fantasy buff, you and those like you (myself included) read enough of magic to wonder about turning the tables so technology is the fantasic.

I think so.

[sheherazahde.livejournal.com]

I've read a couple of stories about people from magical places being amazed by technology. The sort of technology they were amazed by was how we could cause light by just flicking a switch, and we could cause hot or cold water to flow into our sinks and baths by just turning knobs.

Just the other day I was watching a classic Doctor Who story (Battlefield) where the Doctor remarked that any sufficiently advanced magic was indistinguishable from technology. The writer commented that the costumes did adequately convey his intent, but that was his intent.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I've read a couple of stories about people from magical places being amazed by technology. The sort of technology they were amazed by was how we could cause light by just flicking a switch, and we could cause hot or cold water to flow into our sinks and baths by just turning knobs.


In my particular case it would be more amused at the idea of using technology to do those things instead of magic.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

See, the thing with this is that I, as a reader, would think: but why not just use magic? That'd be the intelligent thing to do.

That's the problem with high magic settings. There is no reason for technology as we know it to ever exist because magic would have taken over completely. It would even be more widespread than technology because every one of these settings inevitably has more magic users than the real world ever had master craftsmen and inventors, given the same relative time period.

[ravenswept.livejournal.com]

No matter how saturated a world is with magic, there are going to be a minority of people, somewhere, who do not have any magical gift. Unless they let themselves be babied by everyone around them, they'd come up with ways around not having the ability, then new ways to make that way even easier.

There's also the people who do something differently just because they can. Just because there is "better" way to do something, doesn't mean there isn't someone who has a way they just enjoy more. Look at steampunkers, they go out of their way to remake new technology back into the old ways, some just by aesthetic, some all the way to pure function.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

There's a majority of people who were never mechanically gifted. They bought the watches and clocks, pistols, churns, etc. because they couldn't build them.

Why would the same not hold true for magic items?

[acdragonmaster.livejournal.com]

That depends entirely on the nature, power, and extent of the magic. If everyone can use it for every little thing (such as, for example, most all Dragaerans in Steven Brust's books) then of course they will, and will never bother with anything else! (which is, in fact, the case with said Dragaerans) On the other hand, if there's any sort of limitations, people will find other means to get what they want done. A good example of a hybrid sort of setting would be the Fullmetal Alchemist manga/anime series, in which "alchemy" can be used to do juuuust about anything, but there's a very strict price to be paid, and it takes research and knowledge to use it well in the first place. So a lot of people and places make considerable use of it, but they also have guns and cars and radios for all those little things that alchemy would be too much of a hassle to bother with. So it's very possible to do hybrid settings, it's just a matter of balance to make it work logically.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

What about settings where only a specific group of people have access to the magic, would that make it high magic?

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

That would depend how large the group is, how powerful said magic is, and what the magic is used for.

[the-norseman.livejournal.com]

There's an unnecessary " in your link, you should fix it.

As for the rest I should tell you that I once wrote a story set in a magic rich world, several actually but... one of the consistent criticisms I got was that the magic felt humdrum. Specifically they told me that my characters discussed finding a treasure map to a magical castle as if they talked about going to buy some milk. I gave pretty much the same answer as you would: to the characters magic is perfectly ordinary, though exciting there's nothing particularly [i]mysterious[/i] about the events.

However I have to tell you that this criticism is one you will encounter repeatedly, it seems fairly common in fact. Even if it makes sense in your story world you still need to change things a bit so as to prevent similar objections from future readers. Like say literary agents.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

I don't like high magic fantasy worlds. Nor do I like elves or fey. Unfortunately, I guess I won't be reading this when it gets published. Yes, though, I do mean "when."

"If magic were everyday then technology would be a novel thing."

This is only true of the magic that is every day is not terribly powerful and can't do very much, while technology can do things magic can't. If magic is powerful, it is more capable than any technology, so would be nothing to worry about or be fascinated by. If by "novel" you mean "sometimes people make little entertaining toys out of it" then sure, yeah -- but that just makes technology even less relevant to the world.

That's the reason it's typically true in reverse. Magic does ridiculous things technology could never do.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

Left out a word.

"If magic is powerful, it is more capable than any technology, so technology would be nothing to worry about or be fascinated by."

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I don't like high magic fantasy worlds. Nor do I like elves or fey. Unfortunately, I guess I won't be reading this when it gets published. Yes, though, I do mean "when."

I hope you at least give it a chance! =D

If magic is powerful, it is more capable than any technology, so would be nothing to worry about or be fascinated by.

In the most part, I think it's about the same.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

Give me a free copy and I will. :P

You benefit because if I like it, I'll get others to buy it!

[acdragonmaster.livejournal.com]

In one of my older settings ideas (that I never quite developed the stories well enough to properly write), I played with the twist that history went in such a way that the elves were the ones who developed a lot of more advanced technology first. (this had a lot to do with the humans and dwarves collectively pissing off the dragons, who then remained extremely suspicious for the next thousand years or so) As a result, technology in that setting had a much, much different feel, almost more like something out of a sci-fi series, really.

[palmer-kun.livejournal.com]

I strongly recommend reading The Furies of Calderon by Jim Butcher, asap.

It's a high magic world, where literally everyone has elemental control magic through personal, bonded elemental spirits called "furies".

Furycraft is perfectly normal, taught in schools, certain levels of aptitude are required for the military and such.

To the people of the world, it is perfectly mundane and humdrum - as it should be.

The trick he uses is to show aplications of furycraft that ARE obviously magical and fantastic - to the reader.

An early example is when a man is injured in the woods outside his farm. He orders his earth fury to carry him home, and then passes out from blood loss.

So pretty much this earth elemental scoops him up and runs him home, plowing through the woods willy nilly, and delivering him home.

This is obviously a huge and fantastic use of magic, and is impressive to readers. But not to the denizens.

[torylltales.livejournal.com]

This is an awesome idea, and I'm pleased to see some elves/fey who are finally standing up for themselves. Every story I've read, they've allowed themselves to fade into the background because of the spread of human technology.

[kd7sov]

The question I think you'll want to ask yourself is this:

What sort of technology would impress or startle a magic-user?

The answer, I suspect, depends greatly on the level of thaumic advancement. The Arcanans in David Weber and Linda Eder's Hell's Gate series, with their magic artillery and handarms, and their legless tables, would have a different answer than the wizards of the Disc, or of Harry Potter, or RuneScape.

I don't have the answers. It just seemed like something to consider.

I swear when I started it this was going to lead to a Magitek trope link, but I've lost that path.

[kevias.livejournal.com]

Rockets might be pretty threatening. Whoosh! And they've been around for at least a thousand years, so they wouldn't be out of place in a medieval world. They'd make a fireball-slinging war mage feel pretty insecure about their job.

Really, any technology that does something that a magic user 'normally' does is going to be dangerous-seeming to at least that particular mage, if only because it takes away their special role in society. Anything from compasses to catapults to heliographs to sails that tack against the wind is potentially going put someone out of business.

[lenka0602.livejournal.com]

Quite a while back, I read "The Last Lord of the Rings" by Kiril Yeskov, basically the story told from the other perspective. There the author says that the West decided to attack Mordor, a proposal Gandalf came with, because Mordor was going through the early phases of Industrial revolution and the Elf - dependent, magic and tradition - heavy countries were threatened by this. Great read:)