Serious Kippur is Serious

[kippurbird]

This may seem a bit random, but it's something I've been thinking about.

I don't think that a two state solution is going to work. For one reason it reminds me of when they pacified Germany by giving them a bit of France and a bit of Czechoslovakia after they were taken over. They shook their fingers and said we'll give you these countries but no more making war. This is sort of what the United States and the other countries are doing. We'll give you your own country but you'll have to stop trying to destroy Israel.

Which is highly unlikely.

The Palestinians cry constantly that they want their own state but they don't do anything to make the territories that they have livable and they don't do anything to make peace with the Israelis. They constantly attack Israel and then cry foul when Israel tries to protect themselves from getting attacked. If they'd stop attacking then I'm sure Israel would be more willing to negotiate.

Negotiating with them now is negotiating with terrorists. They haven't done anything to prove themselves safe and decent. Giving into them now would just show that their behaviour is acceptable.

So... yeah.

Comments

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

Actually, you might want to check your own sources.

On the Shatila and Sabra massacres, "The Sabra and Shatila massacre (or Sabra and Chatila massacre; was a massacre of Palestinian and Lebanese civilians carried out between September 16 and 18, 1982 by the Lebanese Forces Christian militia group."

Are you saying that the Lebanese Forces Christian militia group is Israel?

I do not deny that some members of the IDF were complicit but your own source says "The careless reader or viewer could have got the impression that this was a massacre unique in the modern history of the Middle East, and that it was perpetrated directly by the Israelis. Neither was true"

I do agree that the job situation is something that is festering as a problem, but when the people believe, "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it," you can forgive them for being nervous.

My cousin was in the Mercaz Harav yeshiva and six friends got massacred by an Arab janitor. I can point to hundreds of different cases where Arab workers massacred their bosses. It's a two way street.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre


On the marriage issue, any religion may get married. And I quote from the link you linked yourself

"Marriages in Israel are performed under the auspices of the religious authority of the religious community to which couples belong."

It doesn't say only Jews can marry in the state.


"The system is based on the Millet or confessional community system inherited from the times of the Ottoman Empire and not substantially modified during the British Mandate period nor since the establishment of the State of Israel. The system is also in use by several Muslim countries of the Middle East and beyond."

This proceeded the state of Israel. In fact, the state of Israel itself has been designated as Free,

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2008&country=7416

It is one of the few (if not only) countries in the region designated as such. It has freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of the press, all shown on the above site.

I think you have been misinformed on the issue.

[sheherazahde.livejournal.com]

Re: the Shatila and Sabra massacres. That source did say that Israel was involved. Even though it was not Israeli forces who actually did the killing.

I totally understand why Israelis are concerned that other people are trying to kill them. They have a lot of experience with other people trying to kill tham. I'm just saying that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances too.

"On the marriage issue, any religion may get married. And I quote from the link you linked yourself"

No actually. Anyone who is a member of a recognized religious community. That isn't the same thing as any religion. Although Muslims from recognized religious communities can get married people from different religions can not marry each other, and athiests can not get married in Israel. There are no civil marriages. Even Jews can only get married under Orthodox rules. Conservative and Reform marriages are not recognized.

I understand that "The system is also in use by several Muslim countries of the Middle East and beyond." But I would have to do more research to know if those modern Muslim countries allow civil marriage. Which Israel does not. I don't like theocracies under any religion, myself. So I disapprove of it as much in Muslim countries as in Israel.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2008&country=7416

Did you read that report? It doesn't even include the Occupied Territories, those get separate reports.

"Israel drew condemnation from human rights groups for destroying a major Gaza power plant and causing many civilian deaths in the course of the fighting. Israeli troops detained several Hamas lawmakers in June, adding to accusations that the true aim of the incursion was to topple the Hamas-led PA government."

"Israel was condemned for the disproportionate loss of civilian life on the Lebanese side, as well as its targeting of civilian infrastructure and the large-scale displacement of civilians from southern Lebanon. Israel insisted that Hezbollah’s deliberate use of civilians and residential areas to shield their belligerent activities made civilian casualties inevitable. A July 2007 report by Israel’s state comptroller described the government’s efforts to protect civilians during the conflict as “a grave failure.” In September 2007, Human Rights Watch condemned both Israel and Hezbollah for “indiscriminate” attacks on civilians."

"The Emergency Powers (Detention) Law of 1979 provides for indefinite administrative detention without trial. Most administrative detainees are Palestinian; there are approximately 8,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, though hundreds of prisoners were released in 2007. In May, the human rights groups B’Tselem and HaMoked Center reported that Palestinian prisoners are held in terrible conditions and are subject to abusive interrogation techniques, including instances of torture. The government disputed the accuracy of the report."

"While they have full political rights, the roughly one million Arab citizens of Israel (about 19 percent of the population) receive inferior education, housing, and social services relative to the Jewish population... The Orr Commission—established to investigate a brief outbreak of violence among the Israeli Arab community in the initial days of the Palestinian uprising in 2000—cited the “neglectful and discriminatory” government handling of the Arab population, which over the course of decades led to “poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system and substantially defective infrastructure.”"

"Many Arab and mixed Arab-Jewish towns and villages were struck by Hezbollah rocket fire during the 2006 Lebanon conflict, and one-third of those killed by the rockets were Arab Israelis. A July 2007 report by the state comptroller heavily criticized the government for failure to adequately protect Arab-Israeli villages—most of which do not have bomb shelters—during the conflict. In December, a polling study by the Association for Civil Rights in Israel found that anti-Arab sentiments among Israeli Jews had doubled in 2007, and that racist incidents were up 26 percent."

[dungeonwriter.livejournal.com]

"the Shatila and Sabra massacres. That source did say that Israel was involved. Even though it was not Israeli forces who actually did the killing."

Actually, your statement was that Israel massacred the people. Technically, that's defamation, according to the law books. You yourself used the word "massacred refugees," which was proven false. Some members were negligent in a tragedy and massacre, but that's like saying negligent homocide is murder 1. So I think you do owe Israel an apology on that.

"
No actually. Anyone who is a member of a recognized religious community. That isn't the same thing as any religion. Although Muslims from recognized religious communities can get married people from different religions can not marry each other, and athiests can not get married in Israel. There are no civil marriages. Even Jews can only get married under Orthodox rules. Conservative and Reform marriages are not recognized."

Which is Israel's right to do so. Unless you are saying Israel isn't a democracy, and people can't change the laws, and protest...are you saying that?

And this is coming up in the knesset and the laws are changing. Common law marriages are recognized and a short trip to Cyprus gives a couple civil marriage. This case is also being argued before the Supreme Court.

I disagree with those laws, myself, I think marriage should not be regulated by the state. But this is a minor issue and frankly, if you don't want to live in a theocracy, don't. Israel doesn't force anyone to live there, you know. I mean, just because you don't value theocracy doesn't mean other people in those countries agree. It's pushing your own values onto people with different cultures.

And we weren't discussing the territories. You called Israel a theocracy without freedom and I was showing that is an error. I would be happy to discuss the territories, but I'm just proving one point at a time.

And I'd just like you to note in the last paragraph, Hezbollah is killing off fellow Muslims, it's not Israel who is shooting the rockets at them. Israel isn't perfect, but I feel a lot safer there.