Because my character told me so

[kippurbird]

Rper's are strange. At least the group I'm currently talking to and they remind me horribly of Paolini. There's an OOC community and on that community I posted the question, "Just out of curiosity, but has any other muns have the problem where you say your pup is going to do one thing and they just kinda give you the finger?". I realize now it was horribly vague and I should have worded it better. But I've always been of the opinion that if you have your character well done and fully realized that they'll react to situations as they should with out you, the writer, having to consciously say "This is how they will react."

I also am of the opinion that the characters will speak to me. The most recent example of this being when Darian told me he was going to die. I didn't want that and I didn't even think that would happen. I wasn't even planning on it. I knew that I had to raise the stakes somehow and was trying to think of a way to do it and apparently a character death was the way to go and apparently Darian was the one chosen to do it. But as I was writing and these thoughts were tumbling through my head I came to the realization that Darian would be the one to die. Perhaps it was because I felt that I couldn't do any more with his character or a whole host of other things, but to me, it felt like told me this is what he was going to do, and I listened to him, as reluctant as I was to kill him off.

If we recall in a certain Paolini interview (which I cannot find right now) he said that one of the things that he enjoyed most about writing was the fact that he could play god with his characters. And we've seen how flat and horrid they've turned out. Most of the responses I've gotten from the other muns are things like, "No, because they are the direct result of my conscious decision-making." or

"...I hate to break it to you, but that's all your own conscious decision-making. Since, you know, your pup isn't actually real? And is just a fictional character that you, the person at the keyboard, are dictating the actions of through a series of developmental events and established characteristics/traits? (That you, yourself, also made up.)

And if your character 'decided' to 'not forget the Nexus', that doesn't mean he's got a mind of his own. It means that you realized partway down a particular characterization path, the retcon or whathaveyou was a seemingly bad idea or difficult in some way, or things just weren't working out the way you imagined. Not him. You.

Because PROTIP: our characters are not real.

Of course, what I wanted to say "Of course our characters aren't real you stupid idiot I never said that they were, I just meant that they sometimes go in directions you didn't expect them to go, and I put it in a vaguely amusing way to make discussion." But I'm in enough hot water as it is in that group and didn't want it to devolve into a flame war.

But still, the fact that they keep on having to harp on the idea that the characters aren't real and that YOU the mun make the decisions make me feel that they aren't listening to their characters. The fact that they have to make CONSCIOUS decisions on what their characters have to do means that they don't really have their characters down. They don't understand that you don't have to make every decision consciously. If you know the characters well enough they'll do it or you'll make their decisions unconsciously. It's not something you need to stop and think about.

Strangely, most of the people who are having issues with what I said about the characters making decisions for themselves are people who I've had trouble with in the past. We just don't seem to have the same outlook on things apparently. And I think they're so intent on their characters being "puppets" that they forget what makes a good character. I never really like the term Pup and have trouble using it. I prefer using character to pup. And I never really liked RPing with them either. Their characters never seemed to know how to react to mine who were at times rather spontaneous (With Alec more than sometimes) and didn't react to things in the Expected Way. (Expected way is boring anyway.)

Most writers I've talked to say that a good writer is someone who listens to their characters and do what their characters tell them. In no case to they say that their characters are alive but the do somehow indicate that they've "evolved" to such a point that they don't need to think about how a character would react or what they do. They are a fully realized fake person.

What are your thoughts on this?

I'd post a link to the discussion but I can't link to it here. If people want, I shall do it later.

Minor edit of amusement. I think some of the people are surprised that I'm agreeing with them on some points and not devolving into a horrid flaming bitch of you don't agree with me so you obviously don't know what you're talking about. They keep on trying to prove me wrong or something, and I'll agree with them on some points and try and logically explain my points. But then again, I thrive on this sort of shit. I'm also a sick, sick person.

Comments

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

I wrote a novel around what was supposed to have been a three or four chapter story arc because one character happened to say, "Oh, yeah, this place. I was exiled from here for killing the High Priest on orders from the Queen." He was really the driving character in that story, even though I never wrote from his point of view, and tried to keep it centered around another.

One of these day's I'll rewrite it to actually be his story...

I do think there is an element of conscious decision, when you realize that one action is more appropriate to your character than another, but you have to understand your character to get there.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I do think there is an element of conscious decision, when you realize that one action is more appropriate to your character than another, but you have to understand your character to get there.

My third novel was going to be about how Alec and Verra got together but as I'm writing the second one, I've realized that it's not going to happen like that at all.

That happened because I suddenly figured out a character in my second book. Who always seemed to refuse to stay dead in Rps. Which was probably telling me something that I refused to listen too.

[syderia]

I had someone call me insane on the NaNoWriMo forums last year because of something like this. I'm the same way as you. My characters don't talk directly to me, but most of their actions don't steam from a conscious direction of my mind. I just put them in a situation and then they react and so on.

I know that they're not real - although I mean to research the definition of reality some time, let's say they're not physical - but that doesn't make them puppets. They are people, because if you don't think of them as people, how are they going to come across as three-dimensional characters ?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Reality is a strange thing, in my opinion. I know I have a shaky grasp on it myself. Often times, if I go somewhere and I see a major change, like a building being torn down and no longer there, I'll question my memories and wonder if they're right or not.

I think that's part of the autism though.

[sonic-sues.livejournal.com]

Well I do that, too, and I'm not autistic. Last week my workplace removed a large machine. I came in and started staring at the empty space. I said, "Wasn't there something there? Or maybe it was empty the whole time? I'm confused."

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Oh. Well, there you go then. For me, at least, I hold up a mental picture of the place and when it doesn't match I get confused and wonder which was correct. I've not heard of anyone else having this problem before except other autistic people I've talked to before, so I assumed it was an autistic trait.

[jacedraccus.livejournal.com]

Well, maybe it is, but it's not exclusive. I know that since I got back from the States, there's been a few times when I've come across something that's different from how I remember, and I just sorta stop and try to remember how it used to be. I KNOW it was different, and I try to figure out how it was.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

*nods* Yeah. I do that all the time.

[anarchicq.livejournal.com]

Of ocurse characters aren't real, dumbasses.
And yes, mine constently go in directions I don't expect, or tell me things about themselves I didn't know before.

Examples:
NecroRaver was meant to be a bit part in another rp. He's since become one of my most prominent characters.

Suicide sometimes admits things about himself I never previously knew.

Dameon Silverskull, a drowess necromancer, was supposed to be Dameon Silversands, a gay male winged elf with blonde and silver hair.

Drow has depression, a fact I discovered durring rp.

Algol told me he lived through Auchawitz(screw spelling).

And so forth.

I personally don't believe our characters are real, obviously, but I do believe that they are shards of the players personality, only amplified.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Of ocurse characters aren't real, dumbasses.
And yes, mine constently go in directions I don't expect, or tell me things about themselves I didn't know before.

Mostly because you haven't thought about it before. Or you couldn't find a way for it to work.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

I'm a little iffy on both sides of it. Personally, I don't think there should ever be a time where your character surprises you. Why? Because you should know what they are and are not capable of doing. I could chalk this belief up to a whole lot of things (like my natural talent for reading people) but I'm sure everyone can and should be in the position to always have a bit more than a general idea of what would happen at any given time without having to actually think about it.

Characters telling you something? That just seems like a thought process that you connect to the character. Everyone else does the same thing, they just perceive it differently (or not, as the case may be).

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

Okay, I skipped, like, an entire paragraph, so:

"...you'll make their decisions unconsciously."

That's pretty much what I think. Subconsciously, even, if you believe in such a thing (I know a lot of people don't). It just shouldn't be a conscious decision since that probably means you're just treating them like you would a prop.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

*pats* *teasingly* reading the entire thing is important to comprehension.

That's pretty much what I think. Subconsciously, even, if you believe in such a thing (I know a lot of people don't). It just shouldn't be a conscious decision since that probably means you're just treating them like you would a prop.

Oooh... subconsciously is an ever better word.

[sermocinare.livejournal.com]

I've granted some of my characters honorary personhood. Because they act just like those real persons around me - read, the do X or Y without me conciously knowing why they did it. And to all the people who harp on an on about how everything my characters do is a result of how I built their personality, well, DUH. Guess what, everything I do is a result of my personality, too. And no, I don't conciously go through every little bit of decision-making in my everyday life. A lot of times, I will just arrive at a conclusion without having to go through all the information conciously. Same with my characters. They sometimes arrive at conclusions without me having to go "ok, Charrie X is more outgoing, so he would do Y, so etc pp yaddayadda". So yes, they will give me the finger. They will refuse to do what I tell them, or what the story demands. Instead, they will do what they would do if they were real people, and a lot of times, this has resulted in the RP/the story getting way more interesting than it originally was.

And now for some philosophical claptrap: what, exactly, is a conciousness? A personality? How do you know that you've got one? That your neighbor has got one? And how do you know that you've got only one of them, and not, in fact, many?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I think the only way a character is a good character is when you think of them as a person and not as a character. Because real people do things and cardboard characters just sit there. You should want to talk to them as if you were talking to someone on the street. Or in some cases avoid them.

And now for some philosophical claptrap: what, exactly, is a conciousness? A personality? How do you know that you've got one? That your neighbor has got one? And how do you know that you've got only one of them, and not, in fact, many?

God only knows.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

God only knows. Assuming even He does. Maybe that's why he made us, to try to figure it out for himself.

(That's an interpretation of the whole "made in God's image" thing I've read, that God created us to understand himself better, I'm rather fond of that view, even though I think God's a fictional character)

[sermocinare.livejournal.com]

Just imagine... we're all just characters in God's grand big novelling project, entitled "Planet Earth Chronicles".

And now I suspect he's writing me as a NaNoWriMo project, because dammit my life needs some editing :P.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I like that view.

[notadoor.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm hesitant to say "my characters make their own decisions!" because Laurell K Hamilton likes to talk at great length about how she has absolutely no control over her characters and they're really real to her, and people don't think very highly of her characterization either.

I guess personally I would say that I'm not really *surprised* by anything any of my characters do, nor do my characters talk to me, but I kind of go into a trance while I'm writing and often wake up 5 pages later and realize that what I'd planned for that scene has completely not happened -- but that's okay, because what did happen is a lot more interesting and often truer to the characters.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Yes LKH is a hack writer and insane.

guess I'm hesitant to say "my characters make their own decisions!" because Laurell K Hamilton likes to talk at great length about how she has absolutely no control over her characters and they're really real to her, and people don't think very highly of her characterization either.

I think there's a difference between thinking a character makes their own decisions and having created a character so well that it seems like they did because you created them so well.

I guess personally I would say that I'm not really *surprised* by anything any of my characters do, nor do my characters talk to me, but I kind of go into a trance while I'm writing and often wake up 5 pages later and realize that what I'd planned for that scene has completely not happened -- but that's okay, because what did happen is a lot more interesting and often truer to the characters.

I love when that happens.

[authoressarktos.livejournal.com]

Amen to that.

[sonic-sues.livejournal.com]

Forcing characters to do things is an odd concept to me because I don't think that I've ever written that way. I spend more time designing the character than anything else. Then I put the character into a problem, ie, "Small town girl gets record deal, record company wants her to change herself to appeal to the masses," and then the character pretty much does what she or he wants.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Or at least what she was programed to do. IE she makes decisions based on the traits you have given her.

[authoressarktos.livejournal.com]

I'll be diplomatic and say if you knowing EXACTLY what you're doing when you write, you're doing something wrong. Same thing with characters. After all, there's no formula for the perfect novel. I liken it to stumbling around a dark room; once you bump into something, you might not KNOW what it is, but you know where it is and to avoid it.

I sometimes wonder if the characters are merely puppets I yank through a maze, and whether or not I'm doing things right. But in some ways, my characters are real people to me who tell me what they want and what they'll do. It's strange, because it's not a split personality or anything, but sometimes things about them occur to me that I hadn't thought of before that fit just perfectly.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree with you completely. Someone needs to tell Paolini that. XD

[huinesoron.livejournal.com]

It's actually quite tragic. I've gotten /dependent/ on my characters making their own decisions (quote/unquote YES I KNOW THEY'RE NOT REAL), to the point where starting a new story -- which used to be my greatest delight, I was always an intro writer -- has become a chore, because I can't work with these people! 'These people' being new characters, who don't have any personality to play with.

This is why I've mostly been reduced (if I can use such a word) to world-building extensively rather than writing. I think I'll have to take the Tolkien route and work up some legends before I start on a novel again (again again again...).

Obviously this is a writing thing rather than an RP one -- but then, shouldn't the characters evolve in the same way in either?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Perhaps you need to play with your characters for a while first before starting the story? I dunno.

Legends sort of happen to me. Which is odd.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

"Of course our characters aren't real you stupid idiot I never said that they were, I just meant that they sometimes go in directions you didn't expect them to go, and I put it in a vaguely amusing way to make discussion."

Well, that would be the most appropriate answer. That or “DUH!”. But it wouldn’t be nice. =)

Personally, I’m with you. My characters always go in the direction they want, and that’s exactly what makes me love writing. Every time I tried to force my way, the story ended up flat. Now, I know that some people can create a plotline and follow it to the end (someone said that Pratchett once said he always had complete control over his characters – I was baffled), but to me, the fun part is to see what my pups come up with.

They are usually better than me anyway.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Well, that would be the most appropriate answer. That or “DUH!”. But it wouldn’t be nice. =)

I refuse to sink down to that level and start a flame war. It's much more satisfying for me to defeat them logic that just say

U DUN NUW WHAT U R TALKN ABUT STFU!!!

[berseker.livejournal.com]

Plus, it´s more fun that way. ;)

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

It's harder to call someone stupid when you're arguing intelligently with them.

[brightrosefox.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my characters tend to take control when I'm not paying attention. One of them went and got himself killed without my permission, and I was very upset when I had to write it. I believe that some characters can exist in an alternate state until a writer comes up with a story that fits them, or if they fit the story. It's why I love Charles de Lint books so much.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Darian did that. I'm still cranky about that one.

[reverie-shadow.livejournal.com]

Personally, I've always viewed it as more of a subconscious thing. If you view the characters as puppets or tools, they're going to end up acting just like that, like Paolini's characters--because puppets and tools have no distinct personality, and you're basically forcing it all upon them.

However, if you open your mind up to the idea that your characters are living, breathing people, you have a better chance of creating a believable character that readers can relate to. That is what I think most people who just don't "get it" don't get.

No shit they're not real; we realize that. But we're just more open-minded to the prospect that we can think of our characters as something more than mere tools that dance under our strings. I insert a lot of controversial stuff into some of my characters, not because I want to (a lot of stuff from Jade's story horrifies me), but because I think of them so much as people that they begin to write their own story, and I'm just along for the ride. It's during times like that when I feel like I'm the one being puppeted by my own characters.

It helps that I have a very, very vivid imagination. I can sit and imagine myself talking to one of my characters like they're a real person, or go to bed and hear them chattering away in my head, which usually tends to keep me up until I grab a paper and pen and start writing down their thoughts. No, they don't have complete control, but it just feels like they open themselves up to me, and in a way, they open up my inner thoughts.

People who say stuff like that lack an imagination and compassion, which are the two things which are fundamental to a creator creating someone you can feel for. At least, that's how it's always been in my experience as a writer. If I never became a writer, if I didn't have a personal escape from this world after all the shit I'd gone through as a kid, I think I'd have lost it by now.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

However, if you open your mind up to the idea that your characters are living, breathing people, you have a better chance of creating a believable character that readers can relate to. That is what I think most people who just don't "get it" don't get.

apparently I'm a stupid idiot for thinking that.

It helps that I have a very, very vivid imagination. I can sit and imagine myself talking to one of my characters like they're a real person, or go to bed and hear them chattering away in my head, which usually tends to keep me up until I grab a paper and pen and start writing down their thoughts. No, they don't have complete control, but it just feels like they open themselves up to me, and in a way, they open up my inner thoughts.

That happens to me all the time, especially while manic. Very frustrating when trying to sleep. ><

People who say stuff like that lack an imagination and compassion, which are the two things which are fundamental to a creator creating someone you can feel for. At least, that's how it's always been in my experience as a writer. If I never became a writer, if I didn't have a personal escape from this world after all the shit I'd gone through as a kid, I think I'd have lost it by now.

Same here.

[kd7sov]

I wish I could remember when it was... while reading through camwyn's old entries I found one about this same sort of thing, in which she said that certain of her headvoices become "freestanding structures of thought", and that she can toss the situation at those structures and they'll toss back the in-character reaction. I've never experienced quite that myself, but then my rping experience has been very little.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I am completely amused at that statement. camwyn is one of the people who started the RP that this took place on and is a highly respected RPer. The idea that she agrees with me and not with the other people is very... satisfying.

[smurasaki.livejournal.com]

I've heard many authors (in interviews, talks, or essays) talk about their characters _as if_ they were real. Hell, I can think of at least one book on writing that advises aspiring authors to interview their characters. Either much of the writing world (myself included) needs to be hauled off to the funny farm or that's a perfectly acceptable way to talk about it. Except on that RP forum, apparently.

Heck, Barbara Michaels (romantic suspense novelist also known as Elizabeth Peters) once said she had to rewrite half a book because the person who was supposed to be the murderer "refused to kill anyone."

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I have too. And I've had several classes where I was told that I should interview my characters and have conversations with them.

Heck, Barbara Michaels (romantic suspense novelist also known as Elizabeth Peters) once said she had to rewrite half a book because the person who was supposed to be the murderer "refused to kill anyone."

I had that problem too. XD

[oceans-heart.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine one of my characters talking to me, but I'm also more visual then most writers I know. I'm the kind of person that lays in bed at night and imagines how the next scene is going to go instead of sitting and writing it as it comes to me. Personally though i see notihng wrong with it. If your characters aren't feeling real to the author then how on earth is a reader going to believe in them enough to enjoy them?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I think the important point in this matter is the fact that you have to make your characters feel real.

[oceans-heart.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Why would you want to read something that you find unbelieveable? If need to be able to sympathize, love, and hate characters.

[kellicat.livejournal.com]

One time, I thought that my main male antagonist was going to be outsmarted by my female protagonist, but he ended up turning the tables on her instead.

Now, I'm having trouble writing because I get the feeling that at least two major characters are going to die a horrible death and I have no control over their deaths.

I suppose that makes me crazy too.

and now for something different...

[(Anonymous)]

Disclaimer: I am not a writer. I am not an RPer. The [delete] function may be utilized at any time.

Cue assumptions:
The people in question see RPing simply as playing a fun game with a made-up character/avatar/Mary Sue (take your pick). You've said that they "don't really have their characters down" and they probably don't, because they're not inserting a fully fleshed character into an RP, but rather creating a character for the RP, then developing the "Personality" paragraph as new situations appear for their "pups" to respond to. They aren't Real Writers, nor do (m)any of them aspire to be. It seems this annoys you.

Far be it from a random Internet stranger to give you advice, but you're not having much fun and the rest of your group doesn't really like you either, so why not move on to a more agreeable RP? Or maybe start an RP of your own and only invite people you know you'll play well with (there must be some).

Cue flame-fodder:
The difference between a human being and a fictional character, after all, is that if the story you want to tell must have XYZ happen and the characters' traits don't allow for such a plot point, you can simply change them to fit better. ('Course, that might interfere with other established plot points, and you may have to scrap the character altogether, but it's the writer's prerogative.) As for Paolini, the problem is not that his characters are plot devices (which they are), but that he doesn't develop them well enough to give the reader the illusion that they, and not the author, are driving the story. And who's to say they don't "talk" to him too? (Arya: "Oh, Eragon, you're so smexy..." CP: "Yeah...")

Re: and now for something different...

[indongcho.livejournal.com]

The difference between a human being and a fictional character, after all, is that if the story you want to tell must have XYZ happen and the characters' traits don't allow for such a plot point, you can simply change them to fit better. ('Course, that might interfere with other established plot points, and you may have to scrap the character altogether, but it's the writer's prerogative.)

So at the beginning you meant that "you may have to change the character to fit the plot better"?

[indongcho.livejournal.com]

I've recently become involved in a, well, debate about this subject, so I started looking up your posts on it, since I generally agree with you on this kind of thing.

Here it is. The discussion is with Orthent... http://community.livejournal.com/the_venom_apple/27854.html

And ultimately, yes, the only reason a character does anything is that the plot requires him to. You just can't let the reader ever see that. You have to create a convincing illusion that the character is acting for himself, when you're up in the flies pulling the strings. Of course, the instant the reader sees that, the story is sunk, but if you're any good, the reader won't see it until the story is over. Then he might say "I see what you did there"--but hopefully not before.

I just...this kind of idea drives me mad. The idea of pulling the strings and making my characters do something is just so ridiculous. So I guess I kind of think of my writing as...I don't know, a safe multiple personality disorder. They all sit up in my head in their own worlds and do their own thing. All I'm doing is observing so that I can record their lives later, when I get up off my laziness and physically write it.

And lately I've been sporking with two new characters, Warekye and Queen Lei. I'd never written a single story about them before. I barely know anything about their world. But then I started sporking with them, talking to them as I went, obviously, given that style of sporking...and I learnt so much about them. You could say we're still in the courting stage, so I don't know that much about them and their relationship yet, but...

I don't know how to express myself fully on this topic. But I'd rather be
a crazy writer than a puppeteer. Even if people do compare me to LKH