the use of people with the same name

[kippurbird]

Names.

I've been RPing with some people lately and in several cases the question of identity and names came up. To be more specific, a character -Orion- went down to the kitchens and asked who had given Alec a plate of food. The person he asked responded with a "Who?" and Orion then had to give a description of what Alec looked like before the person recognized him. Then in another situation, a character, Jacob, has met a man named Tom. He also knows that his uncle's boyfriend is named Tom. The Tom that he has met is the same Tom of his Uncle, but he doesn't realize this because he just thinks that there are two people who are both named Tom.

Why do I bring this up? Because there seems to be a convention in stories where there is only one person named a particular name a lot of times. Now, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. It's a perfectly reasonable convention as it keeps the reader from becoming confused as to who is being talked about or in a particular scene. What I'm more aiming at is that everyone seems to know who that person is. There is rarely a "Who?"

In the first Role Play example mentioned, I was originally going to have the person answer the question knowing who Alec was. But then I remembered that this person probably doesn't know what Alec's name is, as he's probably never gotten it. So the question "Who?" was asked. To contrast this -because Eragon is always such a wonderful example- when Brom and Eragon were looking for Jeod the first person they talked to knew exactly who he was with out any further information. Just his name. At the very least there should have been a "Which Jeod?" or "I know a Jeod, he does such and such" a better one would have been "Who?" especially since they were in a large city. If they had been in a small village where everyone knows who everyone is, then the knowing who Jeod was would be more plausible.

What should have happened to Brom is the equivalent of a gather information check. That is he would have needed to go around to various places and asked about Jeod before finding the right person who knew about him. These things usually take from several hours to all night. It didn't need to be written out except for maybe, "After several hours of searching, Brom was able to find someone who knew who Jeod was."

Then there is my second example. Just because a person has the same name of someone you're talking about, or looking for doesn't mean that they are the same person. After all how many times have you gone "oh that's the same name as my friend so and so". My mother has two friends, one named Cathy and the other Kathy. Both sound alike so when my mother starts talking about one, I have to ask which one? Then there is the lovely phenomenon often found in classrooms were there is more than one person with the same name. Now that often gets confusing. Now, I'm not saying that you have to have multiple people with the same name, but instead remember that just because the person has the name that you're looking for doesn't mean that they're the same person. Unless they're a famous person -like a king or a lord or something like that- more than likely a person would think "Oh that's the same name as the person I'm looking for" if they aren't given any more description of the person.

Jacob has talked to Tom several times now and he still hasn't made the connection that the Tom that he's talking to is the same Tom that is dating his uncle. Why? Because there's not reason for him to. Tom hasn't indicated that he is anyway involved with his uncle and his uncle hasn't said anything to identify his Tom as the Tom that Jacob has talked to.

Names are important. But just like everything else they have to be used in a realistic manner that reflects how people use them in the real world. While most people wouldn't notice it, it does -at least to me- ad a bit more realism.

Comments

Heads-up.

[karma-kalisutah.livejournal.com]

ARGH! Messed up the html TWICE.

Hey, Kips. With your meatfics and all, I just thought that I should warn you about this. You could be a target.

Re: Heads-up.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Well, seeing as how I don't have anything relating to that on my interests list, I think I'm going to be fine. But thank you for the warning!

[kellicat.livejournal.com]

What makes instantly being able to find somebody in Eragon doubly stupid is that they're just using a first name with no surname IN A CITY. Paolini never seems to have lived in a city and boy does it ever show. Even knowing that he's a merchant doesn't help all that much, especially in a PORT CITY where's there's bound to be lots of merchants and many different kinds of merchants too.

Just asking for "a merchant named Jeod" in a port city would probably take Brom at least a day to find the right Jeod. Or they could find him in under a day, but the city would have to be a really small city with less than ten thousand people in it. I do wish that Paolini had given a size for Teirm so we'd know which one is more plausible.

Alagaesia does seem to have a naming convention where that uses patronymics (Roran Garrowson) so why doesn't Brom know Jeod's patronymic? Asking for "the merchant Jeod Gerrenson" makes far more than asking for "Jeod the merchant". Then I could see Brom finding him in under a day. (It would be even better if Brom also knew what kind of merchant he was too, but that might not be realistic in terms of the story.)

Another problem, not just with Eragon but with other fantasy novels, is the commonality of different names. For example, is "Jeod" the equivalent of "John" in Alagaesia, or is it rare like "Eragon"? I'm not saying this has to be done for every name, but when one character searches for another character they haven't seen for a while, this issue should come up.

Example #1

Brom said "When we reach Teirm, I'll be searching for my friend Jeod Gerrenson. When I last heard of him, he was a merchant."

Eragon groaned. Jeod was such a common name that half the men in Teirm would probably be named Jeod. He could see that tomorrow would be a long day of searching for Brom's friend.

Example #2

Brom said, "When we reach Teirm, I'll be searching for my old friend Jeod Gerrenson. Last I heard, he was a successful merchant."

Curious, Eragon said, "I've never heard the name of the name Jeod before. Is Jeod a common name in Teirm?"

"Thankfully not," answered Brom, "Jeod's not a common name so hopefully it won't be too hard to find him."

Neither example is great literature, but hopefully, you get the point of what I'm trying to say about the commonality of names in a fantasy world. Hopefully, I've also shown how it can add to story conflict too.

Sorry about the length of this post. I didn't realize that it would be so long.

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

Hey, I'm fine with long posts. I'm sure Kippur is too. :D

Anyway, I agree. Either one would be better situations. I think the reason Pao Pao didn't think of it is because he was home schooled, so he hasn't been introduced to the "Which Chris?" scenario. (There's also the fact that he has an uncommon name, which is why we all refer to him by it.)

Incidentally, I am annoyed with Paolini's naming conventions. Or rather, his lack there-of. He picks random shit. Oh! But you know what? I think he mentioned that Eragon was at least a unique name (not often used), though only in a round-about fashion. So the most likely notion is that Jeod is a common name but he forgot to include such details/didn't think to include such details.

Paolini also makes a similar, even more awkward mistake in Eldest... where JEOD is recognizing Roran based on a village woman's name. And it's a name that I would think would've been common in his world but... hell, given the name of the world itself, who really knows? (The Answer: The Cat that Walks on His Keyboard Does)

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

Er, I meant to say 'uncommon LAST name' etc...

Also, I do wonder if any peoples in his world don't use last names. There are certainly enough who seem to only have one name, which is presumably their first. *shrugs* Paolini sucks big-time, what more can I say? XD

[kellicat.livejournal.com]

Yes, his lack of consistency in naming conventions is quite aggravating to me too. Everybody just seems to use a first name most of the time, but I've also seen a patronymic used occasionally.

What really bothers me is how EVERYBODY uses just a personal name. Even if commoners just have a personal name, shouldn't members of the nobility and royal families have another name?
For example, what is Murtagh's name? If he's a noble, shouldn't his name be related to his lands? Lets pretend for a moment Galby gave Morzan a province called Kertan to rule over in exchange for his services. Then Murtagh's full name would be Murtagh of Kertan. The other nobles in the book should be named the same way.

And what about King Orrin? Shouldn't he have a royal last name? For instance, he could be King Orrin of Linsor House or Orrin Linsor. And if Galbatorix took the throne, why didn't he take a previous royal family's name or make his own name? Since he's a dragon rider, he could establish the dynasty of the Shur'tugalar(Dragon Riders in the ancient "language"). That would also be a good way to show off the egotism he gets accused of so often.

But Paolini didn't see fit to think this through so we're left to wonder at the sheer stupidity of the Bricks.

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

Actually, the lack of last names? Makes sense when you mention all of this.

See, none of these people HAVE a last name because they have no family (outside the sparse amount of parents, cousins, and uncles) and they have no history. They also have no land. No, seriously. The land is just there. Under their rule. There seems to be no 'claiming' convention, that was mentioned at least. They have no ancestors, really.

So of course he forgot what a surname would be used for. After all, they're just cardboard cut-outs. ;P

[reverie-shadow.livejournal.com]

Pshhh! Quite clearly when you live in Alagaesia there is no one who shares the same name as you. Because you're just that much of a speshul snowflake.

Anyhow, I didn't mind reading your comment, especially if it was long. Those examples were pretty good, too, even if they were examples and you weren't aiming for writing fantastic literature (although I don't see how one can manage to pull that off in E-dragon Land). They're still read way better than what Pao Pao can and has written.

Just saying.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love long posts! It shows that someone is actually reading what I've written and thought about it.

I completely understand your examples. They're following through with what I was going on about in some sort of rambling manner. They also help illustrate it. Yes, it's not great literature, but it does the job.

[reverie-shadow.livejournal.com]

I always noticed that the names in "Eragon" were kind of dumb, and I see your point as well. The fact that there is only one Jeod in an entire city strikes me as incredibly unrealistic. Hell, he doesn't even have a surname! Why don't the characters (save for a few speshul ones, I guess) have last names? And no, titles like "Roran Stronghammer" does NOT count.

I'm having sudden flashbacks of a chat RPG I used to be on, where I first created my character, Jade. In fact, since I was an extremely early member, my character was probably the first Jade on the board. Then about five other Jades appeared (Jade_Fox, Jade_This, Jade_That, so on). I got to the point where I could happily say "I'M THE ORIGINAL JADE WOO HOO!" And when a new member with the same name popped in we'd go, "Oh look, there's another one!"

I also find it confusing whenever I'm in a class with someone who has the same name as me. Luckily my name can be condensed into at least four or five nicknames, but it'd probably be hard if you had a name like, say, Zack, or something.

Not sure if you ever read any Dragonlance novels, but in one there's a character named Tasselhoff who gets stuck in a different time loop, as he traveled in time to avoid getting killed by a giant. He ends up in a town, decades in the future where he's been killed but venerated as a hero (I believe he fought in a war before he died). So much so that when people asked who Tasselhoff was, I remember "several people raised their hands (and a dog barked)." It might be a bit different, but when you started talking about characters with the same name, I was suddenly reminded of that scene.

Okay. Shutting up now.

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

I've never had multiple characters with the same name, except with minor characters in unrelated stories. I suppose it's just habit. However, I did have one story where Alyx was a common name for the world. Only one Alyz actually appeared, and then only briefly, but at least it was obvious because everyone refered to him as Alyz Sammerin, or just Sammerin.

Anyone else noticed the dearth of surnames in a lot of fiction?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

At least in fantasy fiction. Robert Jordan uses them, as does Terry Goodkin. But I imagine it's so they can keep track of all their characters.

In my world, at least among Alec's people, having a surname is a matter of status. If your a member of one of the twelve original families you have one, if you're not, you don't. At least I'm playing with that idea.

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

In Tawnry's world, family is everything; she introduces herself as a Saberahst first, and as Tawnry second. At one point before the story, the Aberaed (the head of the ruling family) suggests changing the gemstone associated with Tawnry's family, and she's dumbfounded. Tawnry's a bit of an oddity, though, since she was very attached to the Aberaed family up until the first Aberaed's death; her alliances are a bit more fluid.

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

It depends. If it's a short story, it might not matter enough to mention. Or if the cast/setting is very small and all of them know one another very well. Though this would require them living kind of in the middle of nowhere. Especially if they aren't human and their race/creature type is pretty rare. In many cases, I'm sure the author wanted to not use surnames, for a non-Earth/non-human feel, but forgot to put anything else in place of that system.