Hah an Essay that's /not/ about Eragon or Paolini!

[kippurbird]

I was thinking about Religion, the nature of good and evil and Eragon. But my mind slided away from the paper cut out world of Algesia and wandered into Randland, the world of the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. And I realized, once again, just how annoyed I was at him and these books. I would do an analysis of his books, but then I'd never be done. I maybe crazy, but even I know a fool's task when I see one.

But I digress. The Wheel and Time and Religion. The basic belief in the world of Rand is that the Creator "Light" is good, and the Dark one "Dark" or "shadow" is evil. It's a fairly simple view of the world and doesn't leave much room for gray areas. But lots of fantasy worlds have that sort of narrow minded belief, with the defenders of the light and dark lords of doom. While that is horribly cliched, that's not what really bothers me about this thing.

What does bother me is that EVERYONE in Randland worships the Creator. And they all have the same name for him and there is no variation on it. Jordan constantly is creating all sorts of interesting (if slightly absurd) cultures that are very different from everyone else's. They all have their strange little quirks. Which leads to, of course, the constant, well they're just idiotic because they're not doing it right sort of fights that are found so often in the books. Really, that plot device got old in book three. Despite this vast abundance of cultural differences, they all have the same religion. They all worship the Creator. And they all call him that. Even the Seachan from across the sea do it.

Which, I think, is highly implausible. If you're going to have such disparate cultures, then they're going to have different forms of religion. Religion is one of the backbones of society. It's the "What we believe is important" thread of society. We have, in Randland, a culture that doesn't believe in fighting back and have their little thing called "The Way of the Leaf" and they still worship the Creator. There are the Aiel, a warrior society that lives in the desert and find water the most precious thing they have. And they also worship the Creator as the Creator. There's no variation. It's all the same.

You would think that different societies would have different names for the Creator, even if they all worshiped the same being. Or that there'd be other religions and beliefs that made the Creator a more multiple aspect or a hundred different possibilities. But, no, it's not there. And that is a real problem. It shows that Jordan doesn't understand what makes a society. It's not all the weird cultural things that they do, but what they believe as a whole.

In my world, one of the things that I've been trying to do is create different belief systems. I have several different cultures present in my world and they're not going to believe the same thing. I don't have a single "creator" that is good and a "dark one" that is evil. Because that's unrealistic. Instead I'm trying to find compatible belief systems that may have arisen based on the world around the people. So far, I have three. One group that worships gods based on the Elements, one group that worships Lorac, whom they think is a deity, and another group that worships the moon goddess. The element worshipers have a conflicting view point with the Lorac worshipers, but they don't mind the moon goddess worshipers. Each of these cultures have their own society and thus developed their own beliefs based on how and where they lived.

There is no "right" religion in my world. There is just multiple belief systems. You're not evil for believing in Lorac (though the wizards might disagree with you) nor are you good for believing in the moon goddess. The religion may shape your beliefs in something, but it doesn't automatically mean that you're good for believing in one thing and evil for believing in another thing.

I think this is why these "Light" and "Dark" religions bother me so much. Because it assumes that you're either Good or Evil and that's the only choice you have. And you can tell your alignment by what god you worship. The real world isn't like that, and why should our fantasy worlds be like, except that it makes it easier if not more believable to do split the belief line down the middle. No one goes to a religion to on the idea that they're going to be worshiping evil. At least, in a realistic world.

It is more difficult to create different beliefs systems for different cultures, when you're creating a multifaceted world. But even if they aren't used or talked about explicitly, if they're there, just in the background, it adds more flavor to the world. It makes it different to the others.

Mercedes Lackey did a good job in her The Heralds of Valdemar series, where there are multiple religions present. Herald Albrich is from a place where there is only one religion and is surprised to find that there are other religions out there and that they're tolerated. The religions are really mentioned as "And there is this religion that believes in this" but it's just there in the background. And it makes the world that much richer.

One of these days, I'm going to create a culture that finds the "dark" good and the "light" evil.

Comments

[syderia]

You would think that different societies would have different names for the Creator
Except that they all speak the same language, even the Seanchan, so once you accept that they all worship the Creator, it makes sense.

I'm pretty much neutral when it comes to Jordan. I've only read the first six books and I'm just beginning to be annoyed by them.

Re:religion
I think that it depends how you consider religion to begin with, in the real world. I agree with you in that I consider religion to be a social construction first, a way to hold people together while explaining the mysteries of the world. But if you consider religion - or more exactly God, because Jordan does a piss-poor job of disguising Him - to exist outside of the world, then the fact that everyone worship the Creator makes marginally more sense.
Although, the world used to be an Empire, which might have had some sort of state religion. Of course, the fall of said Empire should probably have caused chaos in the religious system, but them it should have caused chaos in languages too, so I'll just assume Jordan doesn't know a thing about a civilization's fall and its consequences.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Except that they all speak the same language, even the Seanchan, so once you accept that they all worship the Creator, it makes sense.

Yes, well I have issues with them all speaking the same language too. Especially the Seanchan. They've been gone for a thousand years the language should have shifted. In McCaffery's Pern series they showed that when AVIS was rediscovered and it spoke originally as the colonists spoke, but then learned the shift of language.

But if you consider religion - or more exactly God, because Jordan does a piss-poor job of disguising Him - to exist outside of the world, then the fact that everyone worship the Creator makes marginally more sense.

I have no problems with them all worshiping the Creator. I have problems with them all calling the Creator the same thing. There are all these different cultures and they all call the Creator the same thing. It doesn't make any sense.

Also when the Breaking of the World happened it should have caused a belief shift. After all people often question the existence of God after a large disaster, and the breaking of the world was a monumental disaster, yet there were no breaks in the people's beliefs. There should have been some questioning and other belief systems created.

[votgs.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. I've never liked that, about religions in Randland and Eragonville. Rand goes one way, and Eragon the other, and they're both irritating.

Once way I worked around the traditional dichotomy of dark evil and good light, is that in my universe, the Light merely represents Order, and Darkness Chaos. Neither of them are wrong, but they're both vehemently believing they are in the right.

You very rarely find a single person who -honestly- delights in 'evil', so how would you get an entire -culture- or -people-? It's silly.

I like villains who firmly believe they are in the right, and who are just as strong and intent as the hero.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

It was really annoying. There are a hundred annoying things about Randland, but that's one that's been bothering me recently. They come and go.

There's nothing wrong with a dichotomy religion if neither is right or wrong. It's when it's separated into good and evil when you have the problems.

And those are the best sort of villains.

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

Bishop's The Black Jewels Trilogy had multiple good, dark-worshiping cultures. The series is ok for light reading, especially the first book, but the second and third can be a bit on the frustrating side. Limyaael's mentioned the series when complaining about Prophecies.

I wanted to do a culture where dark was good and light was evil, but it evolved into one where the dark was simply older. And the religion is spread across the continent, but said continent was controlled by the same empire fairly recently, and there's still a lot of cultural differences.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I read one of the books that takes place in the Black Jewels world... the Invisible Ring? I don't remember. It was entertaining... but at times a bit silly with the sex.

[(Anonymous)]

This was an really interesting essay. Thank you for sharing it. I really like your point about fantasy worlds where people blindly follow the Right Way because it's Good and anything else is Evil. Also, I have a suggestion for another author to read who takes the Good vs. Evil idea and plays with it: Jacqueline Carey's Sundering Duology (Banewreaker & Godslayer respectively). I'd really love to see your take on these. She basically took a lot of Tolkien and high fantasy and turned it around so it was from the POV of the 'bad' guys. The tag line was something like "If everyone considers you evil, are you?" It's a bit slow in placed but the world building and characters are very nicely built up. Anyway, that's just my little suggestion.

[dryaunda.livejournal.com]

Ordered through intralibrary loan. Thank you, whoever you are.

[canadianevil.livejournal.com]

The Sundering is gorgeous. Absolutely gorgeous and one of the reasons that Jacqueline Carey is my all-time favourite author.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

That sounds like an interesting series! I'll try to check it out, perhaps when I'm done with Eldest.

[delphinapterus.livejournal.com]

Those were really good. Heck her Kushiel's world was excellent too with different cultures and religions.

[dryaunda.livejournal.com]

I would do an analysis of his books[...]

Like this?

What does bother me is that EVERYONE in Randland worships the Creator. And they all have the same name for him and there is no variation on it.

Yeah! Even the highly intercessionest D&D deities will go by different names! (My thoughts keep drifting to Asmodeus and Pelor fighting for control of a Christianity-like religion.)

I think this is why these "Light" and "Dark" religions bother me so much. Because it assumes that you're either Good or Evil and that's the only choice you have. And you can tell your alignment by what god you worship. The real world isn't like that[.]

If we could but imprint that into the limbic systems of anybody who argues politics. Have you ever been told that something innocuous you support will bring war to the developing world?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Well, I meant more of a chapter by chapter, or book by book as opposed to a summary of the entire series. Which would be insane, and I really have no desire to reread the first eight books. I imagine that one day I'll get around to reading book nine though.

Yeah! Even the highly intercessionest D&D deities will go by different names! (My thoughts keep drifting to Asmodeus and Pelor fighting for control of a Christianity-like religion.)

Yup. And there are multiple deities and no one is considered the right one.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

I don't have a single "creator" that is good and a "dark one" that is evil. Because that's unrealistic.

On the contrary, it's a very common belief system. Christianity and Judaism (and, I think, Islam, but I'm not positive) believe in the good creator God (who goes by various titles of course) and the evil rival Satan. This is commonly believed by historians to derive from the Zoroastrian belief in Ahura Mazda and ... I forget the evil one's name.

One of these days, I'm going to create a culture that finds the "dark" good and the "light" evil. I don't think that would be very plausible for a human culture. There is a good reason that darkness is considered bad in most cultures - the dark is mysterious, it hides threats, it is associated with the unknown, which is always a source of fear. Now, if you had, say, a society of bats, then it might make sense.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

Actually, on second thought, it's not really that common to have one creator and one Dark One, but to have that kind of divide between Good Gods and Evil Gods isn't too uncommon.

Of course, a lot of religions have far more ambiguous deities. The gods of Shinto, for example, are thought to all have a good side and a bad side. The same deity who provides food for fishers also creates powerful storms sinking fishermen's boats.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

- the dark is mysterious, it hides threats, it is associated with the unknown, which is always a source of fear.


Now, lets think about it. It might be possible, considering that the gods are misterious and often pretty hard to figure it out, that a culture would worship darkness. It might be even like"you know, just in case" so as to not offend any deity. Or if they for some reason respect the unknow, the hiding places, things like that.

Now, I don´t why they would consider light bad... but Ipm sure it would be interestin to read about something like this...


*muses*

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Christianity and Judaism (and, I think, Islam, but I'm not positive) believe in the good creator God (who goes by various titles of course) and the evil rival Satan

Actually, in Judaism, Satan is not an evil rival of God, but instead someone who answers to God. He can only do what God allows him to do. In fact it's more of a job description than an actual person. Like the prosecuting lawyer, I think is the closest equivalent to his job.

See, if God is supposed to be all powerful, then he can't have an equal rival. So the Satan is not a rival, at least, not in Judaism.

As for the dark/light thing. I think I might be able to pull it off, if the world was right.

[authoressarktos.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree, though I certainly undertand what Nix_xlii means. My story has multiple cultures and a variety of religions, because that's the way things would normally play out in a human society. And attitudes towards these seperate religions range from acceptance, to bare tolerance, to outright hostility. There's one or two religions that end up in the spotlight, but I'm trying to treat them equally for the most part.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

I wasn't defending the idea of everyone worshiping that same dualistic faith, just saying that a dualistic faith like that - as one of many - is plausible.

For what it's worth, in my world, the major religion of the culture I focus most on divides their Divinities into two classes, the Loyalists and the Rebels. The Loyalists are faithful to the Goddess, who created the world, while the Rebels opposed her, and are thus evil. Or at least, that's how the Prophetess established it.

However, there is a heretical sect that worships the Rebels. They do not, of course, believe the Rebels to be evil. Rather, they have an alternate interpretation of the creation myth. The creation story says that humans were created after teh Goddess left the world. A conflict broke out among the Divinities over whether they should create humans or not. The Loyalists won out, creating humanity, and expelling those who had opposed humanity's creation. Now, the orthodox faith says that the Rebels forever swore themselves to the destruction of humanity. This heretical sect, on the other hand, believes that humanity's creation was wrong, and that the Rebels were right to oppose it, however, once humanity was created, the Rebels had no interest in destroying humanity, but rather, in working to create a more harmonious relationship between humanity and nature, and between humans and other humans. In their view, the "Loyalists" (whom they rename the Dominators) seek to control humanity as slaves, while the "Rebels" (whom they call the Harmonizers) seek to bring happiness and transquility to humanity.

So, both groups share the same basic beliefs, but interpret them differently, seeing each other's religion as evil.

[jeriendhal.livejournal.com]

This is what makes me fond of Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion universe with its Five Gods. The Gods are universal, and worshipped by all sides, good guys and bad (though the nominal antagonist nation only worships four of them) They don't particularly favor one side or the other, and their Chosen Ones are all volunteers (and usually live to regret volunteering.)

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

That sounds like fun! Actually.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

The Light/Dark can work, is the author is talented enough (coughcoughChroniclesofNarniacough). I think the trick is to remember that, even if one god is good and the other is evil, this doesn’t apply to their followers, because, well, like our dear Paolini said, the villains doesn’t think they are villains ^^ And if there are good/bad/grey people in both sides, the dichotomic system doesn’t bothers much.


Anyway, when I decide to write fantasy, I’ll probably just create the religions systems and never ever mention if they supposed to be real. It’s more fun that way.

[authoressarktos.livejournal.com]

Well, like our dear Paolini said, the villains doesn’t think they are villains

Oh, the irony.

[byakuganchick.livejournal.com]

I also liked how she represented different denominations within those religions.

And Alberich is just really, really, REALLY cool.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Yeah. She does a good job at that.

And Love Alberich, he's my favorite character of hers.

[indescane.livejournal.com]

If I may suggest a new rant, I think one on how to make a variety of languages and cultures would be spiffy. :D Since it's something Eragon refuses to do at all, full stop, beat-you-over-the-head-with-a-thesaurus-for-suggesting-it.

And I'd leech off it and use the info to help build my own world.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know about how to make a variety of languages, as I have no head for languages, but I could try the cultures one.

[papier.livejournal.com]

I can concieve of a Dark-Worshipping culture - seeing as many animals are nocturnal, the dark can be seen as the 'bringer of food', i.e. animals for hunting? Something like that. Also, for star and planet gazing, there's no better time than night. That'd be interesting for a culture of diviners or astronomers.

[papier.livejournal.com]

...Unless you meant metaphorical dark...

[karma-kalisutah.livejournal.com]

One of these days, I'm going to create a culture that finds the "dark" good and the "light" evil.

Terry Pratchett beat you to it, with his Dwarves.

My fantasy world

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

In my fantasy world, the most basic, widespread creation myth is about the Night Sky and the Stars. Even though they have a certain level of science, their belief is that all heavenly bodies are Stars. The Sun and the Moon and any planets they can see are Stars to them. Even if it is proven that the Moon is actually not a true star, it will always be counted an honorary one because Star is the proper name for those beings (and the fire spirits are considered the offspring or the same as the Stars, in some cultures.) The Night Sky isn't literally the night sky. It is all darkness, shadows, and even the sky during the day. But since you can only see a few stars during the day, the Night Sky is considered the proper term and the actual entity.

Also, this world is kind of physically in the realm of dreams. Many of the races in it go through their waking life thinking of themselves as a part of the dreaming. That's how they explain the ability to interact with the spirits in everything and to explain the few strange fantasy races that inhabit their lands (most notably the extremely wide-spread but incapable of regional movement elf-like plant races, who vary in plant-type depending on what environment they live in. They can alter their appearance to a degree but they can't change their type. You'll never see a living cactus type in a rain forest.)

But the typical myth is that the Night Sky came first. The Night Sky was lonely, with nothing different from itself anywhere, so the Stars sprang into creation. They all had individual thoughts and feelings, which pleased the Night Sky greatly. Together, they created everything else (in various orders, depending on which elemental spirit you're talking to.) The more typical alternate myth is that the Stars came first but they were so vain that they wanted someone to show just how bright and beautiful they were. And none could agree on who was brighter or more beautiful. So the Night Sky appeared and they quickly found out. Which caused more arguing, so the Night Sky helped in the creation of other things, to distract them. Though I'm sure there are other alternate reasonings that give other motivations.

Not all cultures have this myth. But most of the ones that worship the Sun, Moon, or Shadow, (among other deities that appear sometimes) have been told this sort of thing from their deities. A lot of societies don't really even pay attention to the Night Sky directly. Most of them focus on the 'minor' deities which actually appear to people and demand worship so that they can gain more power.

The equivalent to Venus, the Sun, and the Moon are the only Stars who have ever shown up and when they appear, they tend to demand more attention. One creation myth claims that when Venus appeared, she became the mother of all humans and all werewolves, by the spirit Monkey and the spirit Wolf respectively (there is a ballad dedicated to this and both spirits are still around, if you can find them.) Most societies are terrified of the Sun appearing amongst them though. She tends to show up with really bad timing and her death is often given as the reason for large-scale calamities. Shadow is feared to some extent because she likes human sacrifice (she resembles a Sphinx but with a jaguar/panther look) but she also claims to be the only daughter of Night Sky.

None of my deities are deemed evil in and of themselves. Many are vindictive or aggressive but they generally respond to prayer in subtle ways because the larger their fan-base, the more powerful they become.

I'm still working on the story that all of this falls into. The problem is there are a ton of characters (many of the deities are relatively explored too.) It's a big world and it gets kind of chaotic. (The two main characters that kind of pull it all together are a married couple from two different countries.) I'm also pondering if my humans were originally/still are night creatures and thus not quite humans after all. (They'd have low-light vision, huge eyes, and probably have become diurnal or still sleep during the day and come out at night.) They have a significant fear of the Sun.

I dunno if any of that even sounded reasonable but Kippur brought up Dark worship. :D

Re: My fantasy world

[dove-cg.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah. Forgot to add that the view of many of the cultures also follows that the Sun deity is the one who leads the spirits of dead humans into their roles (some believe in an afterlife place while others believe these spirits become the spirit of another creature, person, or an element.) Another reason that she is feared. She's strongly associated with death in more than one way (and not just in one culture.)

She's interesting. She can't speak at all, physically or mentally, but she is psychic/empathic so she enjoys voyeurism. And she sends her head honcho spirit all over the world to encounter different situations and peoples. So she has an advantage of being able to experience a lot of different things through him. The connection he has with her also gives him significant power. Unfortunately for him, he has to guess at what she wants and usually just goes with what seems to be the best solution. It also means she doesn't tend to help him out of tough spots because she's usually what got him into those in the first place. His adventure-party friends are constantly angry with him but they follow him around anyway because he always finds a significant amount of adventure/action and new sights and sounds that none of them were aware of before.