*beats Pao-Pao with a very large Stick*

[kippurbird]

I was skimming through the Inheritance forums on Shutrgal.com and I came upon a discussion of religion. Curious, I decided to take a look. And I found this:

The thought was so alien, it took Eragon several moments to grasp what Oromis meant. The villagers of Carvahall lacked a single overriding doctrine, but they did share a collection of superstitions and rituals, most of which concerned warding off bad luck. During the course of his training, it had dawned upon Eragon that many of the phenomena that the villagers attributed to supernatural sources were in fact natural processes, such as when he learned in his meditations that maggots hatched from fly eggs, instead of spontaneously arising from the dirt, as he had thought before. Nor did it make sense for him to put out an offering of food to keep sprites from turning the milk sour when he knew that sour milk was actually caused by a proliferation of tiny organisms in the liquid.

I really don't know what to say to this but how did the elves all of a sudden turn magic into science. And aren't they wonderful for knowing these things. And aren't people idiots for thinking otherwise.

I had a version of Alec (for an RP) who found himself in a world that was more technologically advanced than his. He got sick at one point because he wasn't used to the germs that were on that world and while talking to his caretaker learned about germs. Upon hearing this concept of itty bitty things that make him sick he scoffed and said that was the most ridiculous thing he ever heard. Why? Because he had no reason to believe it. He had no grounding in science, he didn't know about microscopic creatures, and the idea that something that tiny could make him sick was just not believable. Even though he trusts his caretaker implicitly he still doesn't believe in germs because it doesn't fit his view of the world and he hasn't been offered any proof. It looks like Eragon is just taking what the elves say and abandoning his previous beliefs without a question.

Though I imagine, I'll know more when I get to that part of the book.

Comments

[thelittlebudgie.livejournal.com]

I must have blanked out that scene in self-preservation.

Reminds me of Monstrous Regiment, where Igor insists on washing the carving of the Duchess to clean away the invisible demons and the rest of them think he's weird.

Your analysis seems to bring up my Pratchett memories. This is a very good thing.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Pratchett is so much nicer to think of than Paolini. XD

[dergerm.livejournal.com]

Agreed

[-youngblood-.livejournal.com]

What's more, how on earth do the elves know about germs and other microscopic creatures? I'm pretty sure there was no mention of microscopes or what have you in the books. Plus, as you mentioned, don't the elves use magic? It seems contradictory to have a society equally founded in magic and science. It seems to me that beings who are apparently so skilled with miraculous (because that's what magic is, really) deeds would be much more prone to superstition and believing in the unexplained since magic has no scientific explanation.

Not to mention the fact that Pao-Pao has set his story in a Medieval-esque world, and there's a reason that time period was called the 'Dark Ages.' There was almost no scientific advancement at that time because everyone was primarily concerned with religion.

And if elves know so damn much, why the fuck don't they let everyone else in on it? Not only are they contrary with their science/magic schtick, they're also elitist bastards for not sharing their technology with the rest of the world!

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

They use magic to discover it! They're just that special!

And apparently they try and tell the dwarves about such things and the dwarves do not believe them. So of course the dwarves are idiots.

[jacedraccus.livejournal.com]

I can see a race sufficiently advanced in the study of magic discovering things that we found by science. I can't see Paolini having really thought about it, tho.

And there's a quote, I can never remember the specifics or who actually said it, but it's something like "Any science will look like magic to a less advanced culture".

[gjohnsonkoehn.livejournal.com]

That would be acclaimed author Arthur C. Clarke, who coined the phrase, "Any suitably advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[jacedraccus.livejournal.com]

Thank you. I thought it might be him. Or Asimov. Or... well, you get the picture.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

I think your icon summarizes what think about this scene. ._.


And this reminds me of a missionary who was trying to convince a tribe to use modern medicine to cure some disease. He got a microscope to show the leaders of said tribe that germs actually existed. Then he showed the effects of the medicine in said germs.

The funny thing is that the tribe people (damm, I wish I could remember the name) agreed to try the medicine, they prayed anyway – as did the missionary.

My point? If you can convince someone that tiny organisms are responsible for disease (which, by the way, is not necessarily true in a fantasy setting, but that’s another discussion) that doesn’t invalidate religion.

Ah, forget about it. At least now we know more about human religion in Alagaesia. I was getting kinda curious, you know.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

See that makes sense. But this is Paolini so of course this doesn't make sense.

[sonic-sues.livejournal.com]

It seems like another thinly veiled attempt to bash religion on Paolini's part.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Thinly veiled?

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the notion of tiny little creatures, too small to see with the naked eye, living inside your body and making you sick just sounds absurd without the evidence of microscopes and a large body of scientific evidence in favor of it.

Your story with Alec makes much more sense.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

It's completely absurd with no evidence. And I don't know if they give him any evidence.

Thank you. I'm rather proud of myself with that story.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

Heck, just look at how long it took the germ theory of disease to be adopted, even long after doctors had rejected teh notion of spirits causing disease. They believed it was bad air, or fume or whatever. Those were things that could be directly observed with the unaided senses.

There's certainly nothing wrong with an ancient people believing disease to be a natural phenomenon. But to have them immediately leap to explanations we understand today thanks to centuries of accumulated data and experiments is preposterous. Hippocrates taught that in the 5th century BC. But Hippocrates didn't intuitively understand germs, and many of his beliefs were wrong. He believed that the proper diet and excercise could cure all disease. Incorrect, but still a non-supernatural explanation.

[gjohnsonkoehn.livejournal.com]

Nor did it make sense for him to put out an offering of food to keep sprites from turning the milk sour when he knew that sour milk was actually caused by a proliferation of tiny organisms in the liquid.

Eragon: See, it makes no sense to make offerings to one group of tiny invisible creatures so they won't turn your milk bad, because a second group of tiny invisible creatures is what really turns your milk bad?
Carvahallian: So... what you're saying is, we're making offers to the wrong sprites? Gotcha, thanks!

And that, of course, is what's wrong with just dropping modern scientific knowledge into a medieval culture. Any explanation of microscopic effects is just going to sound like a more complicated way of describing it with magic. Now, if they were following the method of the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Tech-Priests of Mars, or even of the latter-day ComStar, that would make sense; you understand the way things work (ie. leaving milk out all day makes it go bad) but you wrap it in religion to make it easier to understand and accept (ie. the evil pixies that make milk go bad will be killed by you putting the milk in the holy icebox. and maybe saying an incantation or something while you're at it). That's how you mash science and technology together!

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Eragon: See, it makes no sense to make offerings to one group of tiny invisible creatures so they won't turn your milk bad, because a second group of tiny invisible creatures is what really turns your milk bad?
Carvahallian: So... what you're saying is, we're making offers to the wrong sprites? Gotcha, thanks!

*giggles*

It's kinda what Granny Weatherwax does in a Hat Full of Sky.

[gjohnsonkoehn.livejournal.com]

Granny and Ponder could sell germs to a Carvahallian, and of course, the Patriacian, advised by Leonard da Quirm, probably knows all about them already. But Eragon is no Granny. Hell, Eragon isn't even a Nobby.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

Exactly. As she keeps trying to tell Magrat, lots of times headology works better than education.

[christinaathena.livejournal.com]

Indeed. And sometimes cultures stumble upon legitimate sanitary practices for the wrong reason. Perhaps they use fire to sterilize instruments, not because they understand about germs, but because they believe that fire is sacred.