Violent philosophies

[kippurbird]

Around the Campfire pt.2



After discussing the evils of the Empire, they hear something. All three of them react, as if they were going to be attacked. But there is nothing. Eragon can't sense anything magically. So, they decided to go and look around. It is just some random shale that's fallen, but it's the segue to the next part of their conversation: the fact that they've killed a lot of people.

Roran sees them in his dreams, which reminds me of Rand al'Thor but unless he's going to start counting them, I'm not going to call copy. After all it is a reasonable thing to have happen. \~/

He angsts about an incident from Eldest where when going into town to, I think it was to buy supplies, and he killed the two guards at the gate: a young man and an older man. Though the young man is called twenty-five-ish, which really isn't that young. \~/ I mean Roran isn't that old and he's getting married. He's just angsting. Also, why would you put on your town guard a old man like that. Surely there should be younger and more capable men. But it causes nice angst. \~/

Eragon's response to this is beautiful:

wrists. “Aye,” he said. “At first it was just Urgals, then it was men and Urgals, and now this last battle. . . . I know what we do is right, but right doesn’t mean easy . Because of who we are, the Varden expect Saphira and me to stand at the front of their army and to slaughter entire battalions of soldiers. We do. We have.” His voice caught, and he fell silent.

Urgals don't count. \~/ It's "at first". They aren't important enough to warrant the same sort of attention. They're just at first. But it gets worse when you combine the two. See now men are involved. Men are worrisome. But it's only when you get to massive people at one time that he really starts to get bothered. But not really. He never says that it bothers him really. He just grips his staff tightly with his hands. \~/ Instead he glosses right into "We have to do it". Unlike Roran he doesn't have a single event that made him realize what he was doing. It's just, "Oh, first Orcs, then Orcs and Men and then Men."

It reads like how he got into kink. Of course knowing how much he likes meat and strong shafts... >.>

Saphira has her own opinions on the subject.

Turmoil accompanies every great change,said Saphira to both of them.And we have experienced more than our share, for we are agents of that very change. I am a dragon, and I do not regret the deaths of those who endanger us. Killing the guards in Narda may not be a deed worthy of celebration, but neither is it one to feel guilty about. You had to do it. When you must fight, Roran,does not the fierce joy of combat lend wings to your feet? Do you not know the pleasure of pitting yourself against a worthy opponent and the satisfaction of seeing the bodies of your enemies piled before you? Eragon, you have experienced this. Help me explain it to your cousin .

Oh Hay! You Killed people but that's okay! Not only that but you should ENJOY it. Don't feel guilty, enjoy it! You're doing fantastic and wonderful things! Sure it's not a reason to celebrate! But then again neither is eating the red vines I have. I enjoy them, but I'm not going to celebrate it. And that's what it sounds like Saphira is getting at to me. \~/ \~/

Eragon agrees with this, as he doesn't have anything to say to negate it. \~/

She had stated a truth that he was reluctant to acknowledge, lest by agreeing that one could enjoy violence, he would become a man he would despise.

You are allowed to voice a different opinion!! You are allowed to say, "No that's not true!" By not saying anything you ARE admitting that you enjoy it! And you too Roran! You are allowed to say no! You are now the man you despise because you aren't taking an action. Just because Saphira says it, doesn't make it true. Even if she does say it's true. \~/\~/ \~/\~/

What does he do? He goes and gets some mead takes a bit of it and then admits he has an issue. See he doesn't think he can use magic against the Ra'zac.

I do,said Saphira to both of them. She had immediately grasped the implications.It means that, over the past century, Galbatorix —

“—may have placed wards around the Ra’zac—”

—that will protect them against—

“—a whole range of spells. I probably won’t—”

—be able to kill them with any—

“—of the words of death I was taught, nor any—”

—attacks that we can invent now or then. We may—

“—have to rely—”

“Stop!” exclaimed Roran. He gave a pained smile. “Stop, please. My head hurts when you do that.”
Eragon paused with his mouth open; until that moment, he had been unaware that he and Saphira were speaking in turn. The knowledge pleased him: it signified that they had achieved new heights of cooperation and were acting together as a single entity—which made them far more powerful than either would be on their own. It also troubled him when he contemplated how such a partnership must, by its very nature, reduce the individuality of those involved.

First of all... why can't he make up new words of DEATH? I mean if there's seventy five different ways to make a fire, if I want to light a fire, I could light it with heat gathered from the air or the ground; I could create a flame out of pure energy; I could summon a bolt of lightning; I could concentrate a raft of sunbeams into a single point; I could use
friction; and so forth. then there must be seventy five ways of causing a person to die. He would just have to be creative. I don't think Galby would be able to create a ward for every single possible death. And then, couldn't Eragon just say in the ancient language, "Break the wards that Galby put on them"? Or something to that effect? I mean the entire anything you say in the ancient language has to become true or whatnot is utterly insane. Personally, I would use a death spell like making the tongue swell so that they couldn't breathe or have a frog appear inside them...something like that. \~/\~/\~/

The second part is, talking his and Saphira's relationship rings rather false to me. They've never had this sort of "single entity" relationship. Eragon has always been on top. Um Eragon has always been the master... um... in charge... \~/\~/\~/\~/

I don't think there's a way to say this without it sounding wrong. Eragon's always been the boss in the relationship. Sure, now Saphira appears to be growing some sort of personality, if rather sociopathic, but they're not of one mind. If they were then Saphira would have never suggested going without Eragon to rescue Katrina. \~/

SO! Remember how Eragon took the stick instead of the sword? BEGIN OBVIOUS FORESHADOWING HERE He admits to Saphira that if he had a sword he could be confident that he could kill both of the Ra'zac. But now since he has the stick, he doesn't know if he can. END OBVIOUS FORESHADOWING.

\~/\~/\~/\~/

Roran wants to learn how to do magic and wants Eragon to teach him. Eragon is all, well you can't learn it in one day. He teaches Roran the Magic Pebble trick. Which is trying to raise up a pebble with the words, "Stenr rïsa.’" Eragon, by the way, does it on his second try. Because he's Just That Special. \~/\~/\~/ (Page 149, Eragon btw)

As Roran isn't "just that special" they move on to Roran needing to learn how to shield his mind. Here Roran uses the power of his True Love for Katrina to use as a barrier against Eragon's attack. And it's a great barrier, Eragon can't penetrate it at all.... \~/ but then Roran gets distracted and Eragon penetrates. While the word penetrate isn't used, "mental ray" is. \~/

Eragon then wants to know about how Roran realized that Katrina was the one.

The skin around Roran’s eyes pulled and wrinkled as he rubbed his temples. “There’s not much to tell. I’ve always been partial to her. It meant little before I was a man, but after my rites of passage, I began to wonder whom I would marry and whom I wanted to become the mother of my children. During one of our visits to Carvahall, I saw Katrina stop by the side of Loring’s house to pick a moss rose growing in the shade of the eaves. She smiled as she looked at the flower. . . . It was such a tender smile, and so happy, I decided right then that I wanted to make her smile like that again and again and that I wanted to look at that smile until the day I died.” Tears gleamed in Roran’s eyes, but they did not fall, and a second
later, he blinked and they vanished. “I fear I have failed in that regard.”

Rites of passage. Generally they have religious sort of thingy, but not always. Still, I can't help but wonder what exactly is a rite of passage like for people in Carvahall. They don't have a religion so they don't have to please any gods or what not or ... is it just like a Bar Mitzvah of sorts, where even if you don't have the ceremony you're automatically a man. I'm not even sure their society would really be the sort that would have a rite of passage. Marriage yes, birth and death yes, but how would you mark such a transition in a society where it's fairly work based and they need to spend their time growing food and stuff. It's not like the go to school or things so there's no "graduation". But, I'm quite certain I could be wrong. It just feels off for the society Paolini has created. \~/\~/

Eragon is doing his probing questions because he wants to know how to court Arya. He bemoans how he can't marry any human because he'll out live them. The dialog between the two of them is painful to read. \~/

“Aye,” said Eragon, and stared at the length of polished hawthorn. “I spoke with her.”

“To what end?” When Eragon did not immediately reply, Roran uttered a frustrated exclamation.
“Getting answers out of you is harder than dragging Birka through the mud.” Eragon chuckled at the mention of Birka, one of their draft horses. “Saphira, will you solve this puzzle for me? Otherwise, I fear I’ll never get a full explanation.”

“To no end. No end at all. She’ll not have me.” Eragon spoke dispassionately, as if commenting on a stranger’s misfortune, but within him raged a torrent of hurt so deep and wild, he felt Saphira withdraw somewhat from him.

It feels like they're in some sort of Shakespeare play and I can hear William Shatner speaking the lines. Which is very disconcerting.

Also, note that Eragon's looking at the length of his staff while he says this. \~/ \~/ There is nothing sexual about this piece of wood at all. Nothing.

There's more yammering about how yes Eragon does know that there are other fish out in the sea but he seems to only count the human women in Orrin's court, as opposed to any elves. Because... um... well... that'd be less angsty if he didn't? \~/ \~/ \~/

“Who elsecan I marry but an elf? Especially considering how I look now.” Eragon quelled the desire to reach up and finger the curved tips of his ears, a habit he had fallen into. “When I lived in Ellesméra, it was easy for me to accept how the dragons had changed my appearance. After all, they gave me many gifts besides. Also, the elves were friendlier toward me after the Agaetí Blödhren. It was only when I rejoined the Varden that I realized how different I’ve become. . . . It bothers me too. I’m no longer just human, and I’m not quite an elf. I’m something else in between: a mix, a halfbreed.”

No dear. Half breed requires one of your parents to be an elf and the other human. You've just had magical plastic surgery, with steroids. It was done so you could have wangtst and a chance at Arya.\~/


Drinks: 38

Comments

[smurasaki.livejournal.com]

Can we curse Paolini with boils or pain or something any time he tries to write? This is horrible. Funny for all kinds of wrong reasons, but over-all horrible.

She had stated a truth that he was reluctant to acknowledge, lest by agreeing that one could enjoy violence, he would become a man he would despise.

The worst thing about this is that it seems to say that if he admits he enjoys violence, he'd be a bad person, but as long as he doesn't admit it, somehow that's different. Because it sure reads to me that he does, in fact, enjoy violence. (Hell, that's even backed up by all kinds of passages from the books, so Paolini is kind of admitting that there's something wrong with Eragon here...except that he doesn't want to admit he's admitted it.)

Also, shouldn't this whole right of passage thing have been mentioned in Eragon? Either both Eragon and Roran went through it (whatever it is) or Roran has and Eragon hasn't - either way, it should have been mentioned before now.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is what you were getting at but by: At first it was just Urgals, I got more of a racist connotation. Like, well, it's okay to kill urgals because you know, they're not like me or like my friends and family, or anyone I care about. They're different. Much different. Hell, they're not even people, so who cares about that? I can handle killing them. But then I started to have to kill people and well ... that's troublesome.

That would be acceptable if it was purposeful and Eragon was supposed to be a racist little prick, but somehow I doubt he's supposed to be.

[dryaunda.livejournal.com]

Eragon's angsting because he has a hot elf-body? There are several hot elf babes -- of either sex -- and Eragon is angsting?

[wayoffbase.livejournal.com]

Someone shoot Paolini. Quickly, before he can write the next book.

Also, you'll be delighted to know that we get some chapters from both Saphira's and Roran's POV, so we get a nice, close, personal look at Saphira's, er, lovely thought processes.

[torylltales.livejournal.com]

You still haven't reached the bit where they are comparing bruises? This is one horrioble--and useless--chapter.

Heh. So did you need an extra bottle like I mentioned?

[chaosarmoury.livejournal.com]

The skin around Roran’s eyes pulled and wrinkled as he rubbed his temples. “There’s not much to tell. I’ve always been partial to her. It meant little before I was a man, but after my rites of passage, I began to wonder whom I would marry and whom I wanted to become the mother of my children. During one of our visits to Carvahall, I saw Katrina stop by the side of Loring’s house to pick a moss rose growing in the shade of the eaves. She smiled as she looked at the flower. . . . It was such a tender smile, and so happy, I decided right then that I wanted to make her smile like that again and again and that I wanted to look at that smile until the day I died.” Tears gleamed in Roran’s eyes, but they did not fall, and a second later, he blinked and they vanished. “I fear I have failed in that regard.”

That entire passage could have been replaced by "Condoms feel weird."

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

Paolini's heroes think about killing like villains usually do. There's no getting around it. Remember in the last book, when Nats talked about how intimate the relationship between a killer and her victim is? And not in a freaked-out way, but in a calm, trance-y way? That's something of a cliche — a cliche for villains. This chapter is more of the same, though less along the lines of Nats's "delightful psychopath" archetype and more along the lines of the under-the-delusion-he's-the-good-guy sort of villain.

My guess is that this is the direct result of Paolini's tendency to steal from other texts. Either he didn't understand the text he stole these patterns of thinking about killing from, or else he simply forgot the context.

[anarchicq.livejournal.com]

I LOL'd

[anarchicq.livejournal.com]

And if it were intended to be an "oops! Eragon is a villain after all!" story, it could be fantastic.

But it's not.


Fuck you Paolini.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

Even if it was that, though, it would have failed. You don't stretch that kind of thing on for this long while still trying your damnedest to force the guy to be a hero. It should have been able to have been wrapped up in one or two books at most; a third should be more about his open villainy.

Either way, it's just bad writing.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

But by not contradicting her, he agrees with her. And even in his own thoughts he doesn't disagree with her. He's very "Damn... she's right."

Eragon hasn't, he ran off with Saphira before he could.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I was. But it was late and my words weren't coming out well. But that's exactly what I was going for.

Seeing as how he was all WTF SLAVERY BAD in the first book, I don't think he was.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Um. Yes. Notice he's only thinking about human women.

[berseker.livejournal.com]

I wish he would stop saying Aye. He can go on with this creepy socipathic talk and the silliness about Arya, if he only stop the Aye's. Just UGH!

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

So, I've heard!

I'm worried, and yet excited at the same time.

[kellicat.livejournal.com]

I know! Even when I was still a fan of the series, I wanted to pitch Eldest across the room every time a character said "Aye". It was so out of place and fakey-archaic. That definitely started to turn me against the whole series.

[kellicat.livejournal.com]

Did Paolini really intend to make his heroes into psycopaths before the story actually begins? I'm almost beginning to think that he did. Either that, or he's just a terrible character writer.

[faded-enmity.livejournal.com]

The fact that being a "half breed" bothers him doesn't help much.

Oh, that poor mongrel child.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

It became two in the morning and I had to get up to make pies at my parents house, so I stopped.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

*sniggers* Especially since Katrina's pregnant.

[arial-vs-lotus.livejournal.com]

yay for Saphira thinking like a dragon...I mean in a creepy way i think i would expect a giant carnivorous reptile to think of killing as something to revel in, an accomplishment and talent. after all she is a predator.
the same can't be said for Eragotohell. I mentioned on Impishidea that Paolini has absolutely no moral grounding in his world for Eragon and the rest of his psychotic heroes to be thinking the way they do. The Elves don't believe in hunting because all life is sacred, yet they also produce leet killing machines. and Eragon hung around with them, shouldn't he believe all life is sacred. Also there is no knighthood, so there's no reason for people to romanticise killing the way knights did, there' no religious basis that says killing can be atoned for by being faithful, there's just NOTHING, nothing but empty rhetoric. it's sickening and insulting. i don't think i've met one soldier who enjoyed killing people, no matter how devoted to his cause, no matter how skilled.
i second the attempt to curse Paopao's writing with blight, or something...maybe he develops amnesia every time he tries to write?

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Nats?

I think you're right. Paolini culls what he thinks sounds good at the time, but honestly doesn't work in the context he's putting them in. He probably thought something along the lines of "Oh, wouldn't be neat if there was a philosophical discussion on if it's good to enjoy killing people or not" and then doesn't realize the implications of what he writes.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

They aye is just.. GURGH....

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

No. That wouldn't be following the Tradition Hero's Journey for his Traditional Hero.

Sorry.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I would think, personally, that a large predator would think things like sheep = food.

Rather like that shark in Interesting Times.

They don't actually revel in killing any more than we would revel in eating dinner.

No, there isn't any moral grounding. There's nothing there to ground them. They have contradictory codes of ethics, putting animals above people, but at the same time claiming to be pacifists.

My grandfather was a doctor in WWII, he never had to kill anyone but one time the enemy army was getting close to where they'd set up the hospital, and he picked up a gun to save his patients. He said he was exceptionally thankful that he never had to use it.

[easol.livejournal.com]

"Can we curse Paolini with boils or pain or something any time he tries to write?"

Depends. Do we know the ancient language's phrases for "Develop throbbing boils on your bottom every time you write more of this drivel"? I don't... :D

[easol.livejournal.com]

It would also be acceptable if Eragon had had that attitude from the start (he IS from a tiny backwater village!), but was slowly getting over it and realizing that the people he supposedly cares about are just a drop in the ocean, and that other races aren't so diff.

No such luck, alas.

[easol.livejournal.com]

Poor him! Oooh, nobody can LURVE him... especially not those dismally ordinary human women! Only an ELF SUE BABE is enlightened and pretty enough to love a HALF BREED.

[easol.livejournal.com]

Also notice that he hasn't given the slightest flicker of encouragement to any human women, so how would he know if they'd be all "ew icky! A HALF BREED!"? It's not like the human women flatten themselves against the wall and make mano cornuta at him when he passes by, because he's so creepy and icky.

Since he's supposed to be the So Special And Wonderful Savior From The Not-So-Evil-Apparently Galbatorix, wouldn't any human woman be THRILLED to have this brat interested in her? Regardless of what his ears looked like?

But no, I guess this is another transparent attempt to portray elves as perfect in every respect -- human women are so intolerant that they can't even be considered, just dismissed out of hand. Only elves are tolerant, enlightened and kind enough to consider Eragon for romance!

As a final complaint, SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER it's obvious that human women can get hot to trot about elf males, even if they look like fur-fetishists. Why would Eragon being slightly less elfish-looking than the elves bother them at all? ENDSPOILERSPOILERSPOILER.

Too bad, because the immortality issue would have been a valid concern, or Roran could have pointed out that Eragon's deliberately cutting out options because he still wants Arya. But Paolini had to turn it into a "oh woesome me! I have a hawt elf body!" thing.

[easol.livejournal.com]

It also wouldn't be as bad if Eragon weren't portrayed as right in everything he does, like saying, "I know it might be justified, but I don't like what I become when I do that."

[easol.livejournal.com]

It would actually be kind of cool if that were handled well -- if a dragon just sort of naturally regarded smaller weaker creatures as potential prey, instinctually. And the Rider could be, I dunno, a force to emphasize "Hey, humans/elves whatever are friends, not food!" (I had to say it, had to!)

Their minds are supposed to be linked, no? You'd expect the human to have as forceful an influence on the dragon as vice versa. Actually, it would be cool if a dragon's predatory instincts affected the Rider in turn, and part of the training was to balance that out so they didn't get overwhelmed by it.

Then again, it would be nice if Paolini included stuff for reasons other than "My Stu is speshul!" and "This plot element is so cool!" And it would be equally nice if gold coins rained from the heavens and gnomes waited on us hand and foot.

[mistyeyedreamer.livejournal.com]

mmmmm...redvines...

And I agree, what was with the whole speaking in tandem thing there? It seems like Eragon and Saphira have done this before, from the way he reacts to the knowledge that they're doing it, but we've never seen it before. It's completely pointless.

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

Natsuda, was it? Natsuada? I can never remember, so I just call her Nats. The leader of the Varden.

[wayoffbase.livejournal.com]

Eheh. Yeah, that was about how I felt, although I concluded that if I was Paolini's editor, all those chapters would have been cut.

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

They don't actually revel in killing any more than we would revel in eating dinner.

Not in a sadistic way, no. But animals do seem to get a certain satisfaction out of doing the things that nature has designed them to do — the things that they're good at. That's why so many of dogs' and cats' favorite kinds of games — fetch, chase-the-string, etc — are approximations of hunting. And in terms of evolution, it's certainly an advantage to at least somewhat enjoy doing the things you need to in order to survive.

So it does make sense that Sapphira gets a bit of a kick out of what's essentially a hunting-related behavior. As an intelligent creature who hangs around with humans, she does sort of understand the moral side of it, but she doesn't quite get just how disturbing her feelings would be to most humans.

Of course, I've most likely just given more thought to this than Paolini has. And, of course, there's it doesn't resolve the issue of Eragon not being disturbed. If PaoPao were a good writer, I might expect that Eragon – a human - mind-meld with Sapphira - who is most emphatically NOT human - to have something to do with his emerging psychosis. And THEN I'd expect him to figure this out and have to deal with it. I'd expect him to have to struggle with striking a balance in order to be both partly dragon-minded — which is essential to being a Rider - and a functional human being.

...and, I just looked at the comment below this text box and realized that the person above me has already said all this, but more succintly. Ah well. *posts anyway*

[ember-reignited.livejournal.com]

Er... the person below me, I guess.

[easol.livejournal.com]

No T. :)

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

What he did is he took the Elf Poser quality from Shadowrun.

Elf Posers are human characters who want to be elves. This desire prompts them to associate with elves as much as possible, talk like elves, and alter their appearances so that they resemble elves. Real elves consider them an embarrassment, many humans think of them sellouts, and even the other metatypes generally consider posers to be pathetic.


So, he deserves it. XD

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Hell, he had a woman throw herself at him in the first book. He's fifteen years old and had a woman throw himself at him.

I would say his age is more of a determent than his looks. At least it would be for me.

I heard about Mr. Furry. Makes me wonder about Paolini it does. Eragon is Cursed with awesome (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CursedWithAwesome) .

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

I concluded that I was Paolini's editor a lot of things would be cut.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

OH! Yes. her. Blargh.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

The thing is, Saphira feels like she's being sadistic. The words that she uses. Especially the reveling in the violence for violence's sake. As opposed to doing it because you enjoy it. And she's trying to prove it as a moral argument.

Paolini's thoughts are merely superficial. Which makes it even worse.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

My Redvines! Not yours!


No, the two of them never spoke and tandem before. But it was still pointless. I think a better way to have Saphira speak what Eragon was going to say, and him being shocked at that.

[kippurbird.livejournal.com]

Perhaps cutting your ears off might help too.

[jacedraccus.livejournal.com]

Aye.

:P

Seriously though, it sounds more like a pirate... although when I say it myself to see how it sounds, I sound sort of Celtic, I think. So I probably wouldn't use it except for an accent based off Scottish or Irish... maybe a stereotypical dwarf.